A lock for what? He status in the top tier is only going to decline from here on out because his stats will go down. Well, I guess the Lakers could retool and win another title but I think with PJ gone the magic isn't there anymore.
Not the stats that matter... All NBA Awards (13) only Shaq, Malone and Kareem ahead of him All Star appearances (13) only Shaq, Kareem, Kareem, Garnett, Jordan, Malone and West ahead of him All Defensive team Awards(11) only Duncan ahead of him Playoff Points (3rd) only behind Kareem and Jordan Regular Season Points (6th) behind Kareem, Malone, Jordan Wilt and Shaq Kobe is a top ten player even if you completely ignore his 5 rings.
Kobe's main problem-- the reason that history won't be kind to him-- is that he wasn't a pioneer in any way. He was Jordan lite, which would be fine if he came before Jordan (like Dr. J or Baylor-- two guys I have above Kobe partially for that reason). Since he didn't beat Jordan in numbers or accolades, he'll be quickly forgotten. Right now, sure, he's in the limelight because he's been the face of the league for many years, but you can even see people start to defer as today's stars-- LeBron, Durant, Rose, Griffin, etc-- are exceeding his production. Now maybe Kobe will play ten more years and retire as the all-time scoring leader; then he would have something. I don't think he's going to be winning anymore titles from here on out though.
Duncan is a lock. Shaq, who is done playing, is also a lock. These guys between eachother have 6 finals MVPs within a 7 year span (99, 00, 01, 02, 03, 05) with 8 championships within a 9 year span (Pistons really ruined everything in '04 lol). You can make a very strong case for Kobe (his career accomplishments) but I do not think that he will ever be a lock (by lock, I mean unanimous top 10 of all time). Too many guys who you can argue had better careers (Jordan, Magic, Bird, KAJ, Dream, Shaq, Duncan, Wilt, Russell in no order. Kobe or Oscar or Karl or Moses or Dr. J or Nique or more which I am forgetting would be argued for 10th).
A reason as to why Kobe has more of most of those things is because he came straight from HS and played more years (and continuing to play more years) than the legends before him. Do not think that it makes him a better player than some of them. And him being on the All-Defensive teams that many times is a joke. No idea why the media keeps doing it. He was deserving during his early days (back when he actually played hard on that end) but over the past several years, he isn't even the best perimeter defender on his own team.
1. Of course it does. Its more impressive to win awards as a teenager than a 22 year old college graduate. 2. The media don't vote on all defensive awards, the coaches do. 3. Whatever psychological selection bias that favors Kobe also applied to past NBA stars, especially those in the top 10. 4. Ron Artest is a great defender. It's not an insult to not be a superior defender to him. Its also not an insult to say Pippen was a better defender than Jordan. Though Kobe clearly defends quicker guards better than Artest.
Kobe wasn't really winning those awards as a teenager. He was a one-time all-star as a teenager, and even that was a complete joke (he was voted by fans to start even though he wasn't a starter on his own team). His early start did help him get about 3000 extra points in those three years that he could have otherwise been playing in college. You can't say that with any certainty. The climate today is totally different because of the prevalence of 24-hour sports on television and the internet. Kobe gets a lot more attention across the nation than a Western conference player would have 20 years ago. Do you remember the days when all you had to go by was the box scores and recaps in the newspaper? And how the newspapers on the East coast wouldn't even have the west coast game information until two days later because of the late finishes? It's Ron Artest today. It was Rick Fox for a number of years. Kobe hasn't been the guy taking the tough defensive assignments for most of his career. Do you remember who "All-NBA defender" Kobe used to guard during the great matchups with the Sacramento Kings? That's right, Doug Christie, the weakest player on the other team.
Did this site get renamed "HeatFanz.net" while I wasn't looking? I can't wait for the next thread "Assuming the Heat win the next 8 titles, who will win the most Finals MVPs?". I'm all for discussion of other teams and players on NBA Dish, but some of these threads are ridiculous. Can we just merge all the Heat worship threads into one Mega Heat orgy?
You're right, let's not discuss the Super Friends Team in the Finals. So who do you think the TWolves will take with their pick? As for the actual topic, funny how Wade goes for 30+ and the team loses? Wade needs to stop ballhogging, he's clearing feeling insecure from being the 2nd fiddle throughout the playoffs
He was the reason they got that big lead. He took 2 shots during the last 7 minutes (Mavs big run). LeBron choked, Bosh choked, Spolstra made some questionable decisions. Had they gone to Wade more down the stretch, they may have won.
This whole discussion makes no sense considering the series is currently 1-1 and nobody knows who is going to win this series. Even if Miami does win this series it is still pointless to debate who should get the MVP because we don't know what happened in the 3 other games Miami won to win the series.
I think the difference between him and lebron is their willingness to pass. If that was lebron he would have passed it ahead to chalmers who was open for the three, but wade decided to take the last shot himself. Sometimes people will criticize lebron for passing, but he does that a bunch.
Did you ever see Oscar Robertson play? The only player in history to AVERAGE a triple double for an entire season (30.8 points, 12.5 rebounds, and 11.4 ast). Career averages of 25.7 pts/game, 9.5 ast/game and 7.5 reb/game. Those numbers stack up against anyone. Care to explain why he's a "no"?
You mention athletic ability and later you mention skills, those are two very different things. Being more athletic doens't neccessarily make you better. It also doesn't mean that you have skills. The best example that I can think of is the '86 Finals between the Rockets and Celtics. The '86 Rockets team was huge and athletic. Olajuwon (7') Sampson (7'4") McCray (6'8") Lloyd (6'6") Reid (6'8") Reid was an average athlete but the other four guys were extremely athletic. That Rocket team would stack up athletically and sizewise with any team I've ever seen including today's NBA. They could score, run the floor and play great defense. Despite their athleticism the Rockets lost in the Finals to a very unathletic Celtics team. All of the Rockets starters were much more athletic than any of the Celtics (Bird, Parish, McHale, Ainge, Johnson or Walton). The problem for the Rockets were that the Celtics were extremely skilled and very smart and our athleticism advantage couldn't overcome those things. If it had been as simple as which team is better athletically then the Rockets would have three trophies now instead of two. Bird and Magic were both pre-MJ and they would hold their own with today's NBA. Those guys had skills that you don't see in today's game. Same with Jabbar, his sky hook would still be unstoppable today as it was when he played. In alot of ways todays player may be more athletic but less skilled in many ways.
As you have already established young Kobe Bryant wasn't tearing up the record books so any jump in career numbers due to the extra year early that Kobe joined the NBA is negligible. If the other greats didn't think they were good enough for the NBA thats on them. It didn't stop Moses Malone. I can't say for sure but its an absolutely reasonable conclusion. The alternative is what? Kobe's NBA celebrity and reputation in 00s is so great that coaches were powerless against voting against him in comparison to guys like Jordan, West, Kareem, Magic in their eras. Does that make any sense whatsoever? If anything the internet and modern sports media allows coaches to find other small market players fitting for the defensive awards with ease. Didn't you just try to claim Kobe's present day awards are based on his defense played in early 00s? Now all of a sudden he wasn't even playing good defense back then either? WOW. It must be a giant conspiracy theory that the coaches are in on to make his haters look foolish. PS. You are wrong anyway
God its really terrible how much people overvalue players from the past. I love larry bird, but in all honesty he is only slightly better than Carmelo in his prime. I say slightly better because bird played defense and was a better passer. Some of you guys read articles about how this guy dominated this or this guy dominated that....please realize that the old players are hyped so much. Even hakeem is overhyped on this forum and he is and always will be my favorite player EVER. Mark my words, but 20 years from now people will say "Man he wishes he was as good as Jordan or Kobe" or "You really think he could beat Lebron or back up Dwight. You are crazy dude they are not even on the same planet."
That was a different poster (BleedRocketsRed) who claimed Kobe's present day awards were based on his defense early in his career. I've always been of the opinion that Kobe's defense is overrated because he spends most of his time guarding the other team's weakest perimeter player. Even your old article helps my claim. It wasn't until after the first quarter of Game 4 in that series that Kobe switched onto Mike Bibby. That means that for the first 3+ games he was guarding Doug Christie. As I recall, he switched back to Christie for the majority of the subsequent games as well, up until the fourth quarter/overtime of Game 7. Even then, he wasn't very effective at slowing Bibby down.
Your recollection is 0 for 1 so far so forgive me if I don't take it at face value. Kobe was too busy dropping 30 and 10 the final two games of that series so really he could have been cherry picking the entire game and it still wouldn't matter. I'm not sure why you believe this to be a point worth arguing about either way. Its a hyper focused criticism that somehow only become relevant when it comes to Kobe. Do you think Garnett always guarded the best big man every single game? Do you think Duncan always guarded the best big man every single game? Do you think Jordan always guarded the best guard every single game? Do you think LeBron always guards the best wingman every single game? Guys like Thabo and Bruce Bowen offer nothing else to the table so when they are getting playing time at all its to use every single piece of their energy to defend. That doesn't make them superior it makes them one dimensional.
Well I guess I have an advantage then since I actually saw Larry Bird play live in the '76 NIT and lose to Otis Birdsong's Houston squad 83-82 (Bird had 44 that game) at Hofeinz Pavillion. I also saw him several times live with the Celtics and hundreds of times on TV. Anthony isn't even in the same conversation with Larry Bird. Bird is an all-time great and Anthony is just an all-star. Bird, Magic and Olajuwon were all all-time greats and if they were playing today they would still be all-time greats. Olajuwon was a much quicker Dwight Howard and he also happened to have the most complete offensive and defensive game of any center to ever play. Magic and Bird controlled the game in ways that no player today can/does. It's not hype...it's simply the truth.
