not at all...azadre said this would be controversial to someone who believed jesus to be God...i pointed out that it should be equally controversial to one who views jesus as a prophet of God... azadre - huh?? read your original post...if it's controversial to me as a Christian, then it's certain to be controversial to Muslims who believe Jesus to be a prophet...i agree with you that his points are ridiculous...perhaps it is the attention being paid to them that's controversial...nevertheless, what are we arguing about again?
I don't really think arguing over anything. Sides, if someone said a prophet did drugs, it wouldn't piss me off as much as if I held a human as a deity and someone said he was just a drug addict.
i understand that sentiment...but given the Islamic teachings on the value of the Koran, I think it would tend to cast doubt on that book...which would tend to bother you. just my guess...
I wouldn't worry too much about what Mr. Heinrich has to say on this topic. In the book itself, he admits that all of his conclusions are of a "speculative" nature. He likens his view of religious history to that of a parallel universe -- very similar, but not exactly the same. As an ethnobotanist, he has a fairly obvious agenda for pushing the prominence of mind-altering substances. This is from one of his earlier books: The informed use of entheogenic, consciousness-enhancing plants and drugs presents a direct and powerful challenge to any system that seeks to spoon-feed the masses with false ideals of nationalism, racism, sexism or pre-digested religion, and this is precisely the reason they have been criminalized. One does not go back to being led around by the nose once the fullness of one's humanity is realized, nor to eating pap once the full pleasures of eating are learned; besides, we need roughage or we fill up with our own waste. Expanded consciousness is one genie that can't be put back in the bottle and we're better off for it. The cat is out of the bag. Pandora's box lies open. The cover has been blown off the ark of the covenant. Wisdom cries in the streets and shouts from the rooftops, once again trying to make herself heard above the din. Whoever has ears should listen. Whoever has a voice should consider speaking up, for the time of the end is near, as it always is in this brief life. Let me testify in no uncertain terms: the kingdom of heaven is much closer, and far easier of access, than we have been led to believe. And it is worth the trip. Although I do agree that heaven (or nirvana or enlightenment or peace) is closer than we realize, I'm not sure mind-altering substances are the way to reach it. In fact, I would argue that they obscure the clear vision that is necessary for realizing spiritual aspirations. Surya Das, one of my favorite authors, traveled to India in the 1960s to learn more about spirituality from the monks and ascetics who lived there. Das had smoked pot and dropped acid quite often and had, what he believed to be, many religious visions. After a rigorous meditation retreat with Buddhist monks, he finally decided to ask the head monk about the validity of his chemically induced visions. The monk only shook his head and laughed, "Western boy's dreams," over and over. Das said he came to find, after years of spiritual practice, that the spiritual experiences he had clear-headed far surpassed anything that was drug induced.
Yeah, but on the bright side, there would be no repercussions for swinging some bows and clearing some room... What would they do? Send me to Hell? I mean like, deeper into hell?
I have to say as a Christian I'm not offended by this guy's book at all. It's just too ridiculous to give much creedance too. To say that because a mushroom feels like human flesh, and that his reason for believing Jesus was talking about that at the last supper, isn't a very well supported argument. It's a huge stretch. I think what he says is too silly to be taken seriously and be offended by. MadMax, Sorry for the misunderstanding earlier. I went back re-read, and I screwed up when reading the original post by Azadre. You were getting your poing across well, to those on the board who, unlike myself, are actually literate.
Very interesting post overall, but I have to comment on the last bit here. When has someone ever said the following: "You know what. I've been trying something new spiritually, putting a lot of time and effort into it, and I've come to the clear conclusion that what I USED to do was much, much deeper and more spiritual. What I'm doing now completely sucks, actually." I've never heard someone say anything like that. I think it is just too strong a human tendency to see themselves as advancing somehow. I submit that if Das had started tripping after his meditation, then acid, etc., might have "far surpassed" his earlier experiences. (clears throat). Not that I have any stake in, um, mind-altering drugs or those sorts of things.
Well he did shoot like 0 for 10 against the Fakers last night...I suppose he coulda like blazed up before tipoff or somethin
Prempeh, according to Dante's Inferno that's exactly what would happen. Atleast you guys are strong in your beliefs, I seem to waver from day to day and week to week. While were on the subject here's one that has had stumped for quite a while. So assuming there is a God and he is all knowing why would he put a hell bound soul on this earth? I mean we have free will and all but if God knows all then he knows the decisions we'll make before we are even presented with them and ultimatly whether we'll go to heaven or hell. Why would you then allow a person to be if they are Hell bound? Megadeath who I guess aren't "believers" in Heaven, Hell or God wrote "If I'm right I lose nothing, if your right I lose it all"
It's entirely possible that you're right. I don't have a great deal of experience with mind-altering substances (besides alcohol) so I can't really speak from personal experience. I was just presenting one person's view. On the other hand, if three glasses of wine can make me so stupid that I'm unfit to be behind the wheel of a car, then I doubt munching on magic mushrooms is going to put me in the proper frame of mind to meet my maker.
I guess it depends on your understanding, belief and Interpretation of the Bible. What do you believe in??
SSG -- I don't pretend to have all the answers...I'm not sure there is a real answer to your question that we can begin to understand. I believe (as do many Christians) that God exists outside of time. Read John Calvin's "Institutes"...he really hits on the tension between a sovereign God and free will. That's an issue that has met with a lot of different views over the history of the church. It's ultimately not just a Christian issue...there are other religions which contemplate heaven/hell. I did hear it put this way once, though...hell is the ultimate evidence of human dignity. God is not a cosmic rapist who forces His love on you and forces the same back. He doesn't seek to create puppets. You might also read "The Screwtape Letters" by C.S. Lewis. One of my favorite books, it's a collection of letters from one demon to another to undermine the faith of a person. This issue of free will comes up from time to time in those letters...at the very least the book is extremely clever and a fun read. Keep in mind too that there are a lot of different views on what hell is. I'd say, at the very least, it's absence of God and all that means. But Jesus talks about people in hell asking for those in heaven to provide a mere drop of water for relief. Doesn't sound like much fun to me.
Makes sense. But still, you could say that driving a car is the exact opposite activity to finding enlightenment! So maybe if something's bad for driving, it's gotta be good for the soul. And SSG, I am loving the Megadeath quote. Please post some more, as I'm sure they have some more comments on the underworld. You have to love this BBS when Megadeath, the Bible, Surya Das, and lame books coming out of Santa Cruz, CA, all get used in the same discussion.
I believe that condemning a soul to hell for eternity is incompatable with the belief in a loving God.
That is one serious question that deserves more than a few paragraphs in response, although that's all I will offer you here. A very short, unreferenced answer is that the reason for humanity is to be a part of a relationship with God, and through this relationship reveal Himself and His characteristics to not only us, but to all of creation. Because He wants to define Love and Holiness to all creation, He allowed us free will. We in turn chose not to understand Him unless provided an example of what He is not, or in other words experience separation from Him (sin). Because He created all of us uniquely (personality, appearance, health, environment, era, understanding of Him, etc...) there will be no situation in which anyone may ask Him, "What if this, what if that, what if I was different? The results of my separation from you in this situation is acceptable. So you have no authority to punish me for it." But when this life is compared to the Holiness of God, it will become apparent that it doesn't pass. Even though God is omniscient and knows the choices of a hellbound person, He wants creation to see that the opportunity of salvation was always available. "Many are called, few are chosen." The situation lends itself to the definition of Love and Holiness.
From my many experiences over the past 22 years with the city of Santa Cruz, I must say that it has the most people with, shall we say "alternative lifestyles" (I think of them as odd people, eg. goths, wiccans, satanists, way-out-there pot-head hippies, etc., but I don't want my standards forced on anyone else), per capita, of any city in the world. Were I not given the location from whence the book came, I would have guessed Santa Cruz or San Francisco (more of the above people in total, just a lower percentage of a much larger population.)
