Huh? If it were "standard interrogation," why would have the intelligence officials been repeatedly investigated and criticized for their involvement in a program that involved the harshest interrogation methods in U.S. history, according to the AP report?
We know it was standard interrogation because it specifically says it was, in the quote that's been posted no fewer than four times in this thread. Here it is again, for your benefit:
He has obviously gotten into your head, you *used* to be a good poster here. I did not see at any place in this thread where you were brought up by anyone....yet you come in and start tossing around nazi left and right. Take some advice, put him on ignore and quit popping into random threads for no other purpose than to call out and insult someone else. I frankly dont give a crap if you dont like his distaste for Islam and/or muslims...he has every right to his opinion, just like you....but I can tell you one thing, IM getting sick and tired of seeing you and some of the other islam defenders tossing around the nazi insult like its a piece of freaking candy at a parade. this place may be somewhat like the wild west, but there is a line.
i can't believe there is actually a discussion of interrogation techniques, when the torture defenders are saying we got critical information EIGHT YEARS AGO. come on.
I am not a torture defender so i guess that might explain why I don't understand your post. Could you rephrase it?
they are claiming the critical information came from interrogations eight years ago? I don't buy it, especially the fact that osama wasn't living in that compound that long
Maybe the early, repeated waterboarding shook him up quite a bit, resulting in a later confession? You see, even the same passage you quoted leaves lots of room for debate on enhanced technique.
It takes time for information to be processed and ghosts to get names, then those to be linked to real names, then real names linked to a person that can be observed.
It's obvious waterboarding played a critical role in getting this information as the fear of having to go through that again may have been too much for him to take. I big thanks needs to go to Bush and Chaney on this one.
The information obtained was the courier. They got information that led them to identify one of OBL's couriers and they apparently found him and tracked him beginning in 2007, waiting for him to lead them to bin Laden.
Nice, I knew somebody was going to go "Ashton Kutcher Butterfly Effect" to justify illegal torture when it noticeably failed to produce actionable intelligence - as most warned it would. Congrats wnes, you win the prize!
That you dismiss that as being an irrational idea and compare it to an Ashton Kutcher movie is ridiculous on your part.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42869844/ns/world_news-death_of_bin_laden Muslim-Americans bid good riddance to bin Laden 'Bin Laden was not a Muslim leader; he was a mass murderer of Muslims' Far from mourning the death of Osama bin Laden, most Muslim-Americans are celebrating his demise, saying they have no sympathy to spare for a man who indiscriminately slaughtered people of all religions and launched their community into a decade of distrust and discrimination. "A lot of (Muslim-Americans) feel, first and foremost, catharsis and relief," said Wajahat Ali, a Muslim-American writer and attorney in the San Francisco Bay area. "Relief because Osama bin Laden was a global symbol of terror and indiscriminate violence. "… It's also a relief because he symbolizes (those who) hijacked Islam, legitimizing his ruthlessness (using the) religion. … His name and the photo (are) imprinted on the collective consciousness of the world." Islamic leaders contacted Monday by msnbc.com said they saw justice in killing bin Laden and emphasized that he was not one of their own. "Bin Laden was not a Muslim leader; he was a mass murderer of Muslims," said Imam Mohamed Magid, president of the Islamic Society of North America. "Indeed, al-Qaida has slaughtered scores of Muslims in many countries, including our own. So his demise should be welcomed by all who believe in peace and human dignity." Backlash But they were divided about whether bin Laden's demise would mark a turn for the better for the Muslim-American community, which many say has been subjected to anti-Islamic attacks and overzealous intelligence gathering by U.S. authorities as a backlash sparked by bin Laden and his al-Qaida terror network. "For too long, many of our fellow Americans have stereotyped the entire Muslim community as somehow being extensions of bin Laden," Yasir Qadhi, an Orthodox Muslim leader and Islamic Studies scholar at Yale University, said in an email. "While the capture of Osama bin Laden was always a high priority, dealing with bin Laden should never have distracted us from solving our domestic problems, nor been used to create problems that did not exist (by targeting and stereotyping the Muslim community). "With his death, we pray that we as a nation can regain our composure and begin in earnest to take our country to greater heights." Sufu Hashim of the Islamic Society of Western Massachusetts put it more bluntly: "Maybe the Islamophobia can stop now," he said. "The persecution of Muslims can stop now, particularly in the United States." According to intelligence experts, bin Laden's ability to coordinate terrorist attacks dwindled over the decade since he laid the groundwork for the Sept. 11 attacks, as dogged pursuit of his operatives fractured the al-Qaida network. Al-Qaida took weeks to respond to the popular uprisings in the Middle East, which many terror experts said was a reflection of diminished relevance and capacity. 'Sense of relief' Nonetheless, the removal of bin Laden — because of its symbolism — could help lessen the animosity towards American Muslims, suggested Ali, the Bay Area lawyer. "Maybe his death makes people feel safer. In some ways it doesn't matter if they actually are," he said. "He's this powerful icon of evil, the bogeyman, the face of terrorism. The fact that he is eliminated has caused a lot of people to exhale." "There is a sense of relief," agreed Ibrahim Hooper, communications director for the Council on American Islamic Relations. "There's a sense that we are a little bit safer today than yesterday but obviously this is not the end of terrorism in our time. The ideology behind (terrorism) remains and needs to be challenged." Bin Laden's death also does not end efforts by extremists to recruit disaffected Muslim-American youth into violent action. That represents a serious threat, according to many terrorism experts, who cite several planned attacks in recent years inspired by a Muslim extremist born in the United States and living in Yemen — Anwar al-Awlaki. Muslim-American leaders say the threat exists, but argue that it has spiraled into irrational fear, as demonstrated by recent controversial congressional hearings focused on the threat posed by such home-grown terrorists.. "In addition to eliminating the leaders of al-Qaida, we must also challenge the theological rationale of these radicals, and address the socio-political concerns that enrage them to such a level," said Qadhi, the Yale scholar. "Until all of these are done in tandem, we shall always worry about the possibility of another person 'going radical' on us." Those concerns pervade the theological spectrum. "Some people in my community are sort of Pollyanna-ish. They're hopeful that this is going to make a difference in America's Islamophobic behavior," said Karen Keyworth a Muslim in East Lansing, Mich., and co-founder of the Islamic Schools League of North America. "I would like to think that's true, but I do not think so." Those concerns gained voice hours after President Barack Obama announced on Sunday that U.S. forces had killed bin Laden. The next morning, a Muslim Community Center in Portland, Maine reported that it had been attacked by graffiti artists overnight. Scrawled across the building, which serves mainly Somali Muslims, were the words: "Long live the West," and "Osama Today, Islam Tomorrow." Those hateful words underline the challenge facing Muslim-Americans – an obstacle made so much larger by bin Laden and his decade long campaign of terror, said Ali, the Bay Area lawyer. "The war on extremism isn't over," he said. "And the war on ignorance is not over."
Seems irrational that torture will shake someone up. The information is too vague to make any definite conclusions though.
My understanding is war with the West wasn't an end to itself but a means towards creating the Caliphate. As you note it would entail kicking the West out but also as providing a common enemy. I am not sure what is so hard to believe as the name "Al Qaeda" implies that it is a movement towards building something greater and the multinational nature of the movement shows that it is about uniting Islam against a common enemy.
It doesn't ramp up anti-American sentiment any more than actually carrying out the operation, which was carried out. Talking about it ramps it up less than doing it, and thus if we're going to do it, it doesn't matter that we talk about it. Pakistan can save face by going after high level Al-Qaeda officials. They lose face by the action taking place whether we announced it beforehand or not. Nothing said beforehand is any worse for Pakistan than actually carrying it out. Based on what McCain said I do doubt he would have done the same thing. I can only go on what McCain said, and what Obama said and did. Again if the operation is going to happen talking about it before hand doesn't do anything to Pakistan that carrying the mission out wouldn't do.
