Isn't your point exactly the same? Player X has high value, sell high!!! Keeping a player doesn't mean rebuilding around him, I'm not sure why having Km around = making him the centerpiece of your team. There is no definite order to building a championship team, sometimes you have the sidekicks first before the superstar. The lakers drafted Kobe first before they got Shaq, and the Celts had Pierce for a number of years before they got the new big 3. Now we have a nice supporting cast of Lowry, KM and Scola. I'm not sure why you want to trade the 28 year old dude for lottery picks when he is a valuable piece to the puzzle. P.S. All this talk of trading KM because you can't build around him and you advocate trading for Rudy Gay and his max contract? Which is easier to build upon, KM and his affordable 10M contract or Rudy Gay and his 16M contract? LoL!
I'm here because I'm a K-Mart fan. I'm also an Adelman fan. As a K-Mart fan, I hope he gets traded to a team that isn't going into rebuild mode again. That's not fair to him.
Deron Williams was traded for assets. Melo was also traded for assets. Assets are a numbers game, as long as you keep increasing your asset base sooner or later someone will bite. Its a given, every player in the league has a certain price, if you keep increasing your "cash" (ie: assets) you can get your player eventually. The traditional route rarely works, why is it the despite having 14 lottery teams year after year you can count on 1 hand the champion teams the last 10 years? I guess people really do like watching losing teams, why else would you want the franchise to bottom out, for DM to be fired and for us to take 6-10 years to reach the level we are now.
LTF, I would love to do what you suggest, but as with any such concept this would only work if there is another team that would take K-Mart and provide good value in return (as many have already stated). As a result only really 2 types of teams would work to pull this off: 1. Teams that severely underachieved in the 2010-11 season (most likely due to injury) and now have a high draft pick they can leverage to add to team that should return in 2011-12 as a close-to-contender. I.E. Battier for Gay trade. Ray Allen for J. Green trade. This pretty much has to be a draft day trade, otherwise it just doesn't make much sense to pull off. Right now. None of the teams who are in the lottery are good teams that had bad luck. They are simply bad teams or super young teams. It makes no sense for a bad team to take K-Mart. The young teams have seemed to be content developing their own prospects and young players. Teams that may possibly take on a K-mart could be? Cavs, Raptors, and Pistons are no where near sniffing the playoffs and have no real stars to build around. No chance they look at Martin. Kings would not take back Martin as they have Thornton & Evans.GSW have Ellis so no dice. Clippers would be a great fit if they didn't already trade their pick to Cleveland and have Gordan lined up at SG. Nets would be the same even though Morrow is playing well, but they traded their pick to Utah. Jazz could like Martin next to Favors, but who knows how long it will take for him to develop. They would be better to draft young players and develop slow than jump start now, so no trade. Bobcats don't know what they are doing. They should start over but have not gone all in after trading Wallace with S-Jax & Diaw still there. If they rebuild, no dice. If they convince themselves they should try for playoffs next year, maybe but I doubt it with Henderson playing well. Wash: K-Martin plus natural growth on that team could get them into playoffs next year, but they have two young SG's they are trying to groom already. So very doubtful. Minn do need an average guard, but they need a PG before a SG. Would they even do it? No. Martin + Love + Beasley would not likely equal playoffs in the West with no defense on the team. Also doubtful. 2. Teams that are on-the-cusp playoff teams or contenders, but have a number of highly sought after assets like high draft picks from other teams, young prospects, or international players stashed somewhere (which can looked at here. Pacers have George & Granger, so no dice. Atlanta has Joe Johnson, no dice. NYK have NOTHING to trade. Hornets gave pick to Blazers who game it Bobcats, and no other good prospects. Nuggets & Mavs have too many assets right now. Thunder, Heat, Spurs, Lakers, & Celtics don't need/can't afford Martin. Phoenix could work well, but do they really want Martin over Grant Hill/Vince Carter? Even if they did, what do they have to trade? Grizzles have young guards who already play defense, no need for Martin. They also gave pick to Timberwolves, and need to save money to resign Zbo and Gasol. Unless you want Gay, I don't see a trade. Blazers also have good young players at SF/SG already, but do need more consistent scoring from SG. Not sure if Martin is a good upgrade over what Wes Matthews will become. They already who a ton of money, gave away lots of assets to get Wallace, and would be willing to trade whom? Magic would really be an amazing fit for Martin next to Howard. But do the Magic: 1) Try to reload or cut their losses? 2) Owe tons of money with not-cost effect contracts for Arenas, Turk, Nelson, & Reddick. 3) Think he is an upgrade over those players and what Richardson was providing. 4) Have any trade-able prospects or picks? Bulls with K-Martin is dynasty. 2nd/3rd scoring option. Decent sized SG. Maybe not as much defense as a Lee/Brewer, but more than makes up for it on offense. Gives Rose a break. Yes, he harms their defense, but with their size I think they would be okay. However, no real trade-able assets. Bucks would love a real SG to play with Jennings and Bogut. This is first real team I could see taking Martin, but with a stiffer CBA and being a small market team that shellled out $$ on Salmons and Maggette on bad contracts and finally getting rid of Michael Redd, do they take that chance? They could get a decent 2010 pick from the Lottery, but what else do they have to trade other than Jennings and Sanders? Philadelphia would actually be a great spot for Martin. They have good PG, and AI at SF, rejuvenated Brand at PF. However, they need size at PF/C more than anything. Would they be willing to go all in right now trading some young players for Martin & size? So that means your best trade partners right now are the Bucks, 76ers, Jazz, Bobcats, Wiz, & T-Wolves. I don't see any K-Mart trade happening with any of them.
Just trade him to the Clippers for the 2012 UNPROTECTED Timberwolves 1st rounder. Blake and Deandre get a pure shooter to kick out to and help with the scoring load, Rockets get a potential top 3 pick in a LOADED 2012 draft. That could potentially turn Kevin Martin into Harrison Barnes, Perry Jones, Jared Sullinger, or Anthony Davis!
Deron Williams was traded for Derrick Favors who is a top 5 pick, and a top 10 pick this year, in addition to the other assets. Melo was traded to exactly where he wanted to go. When it comes to assets it is quality(whether real or perceived) over quantity. 10 Shane Battiers do not equal a Lebron. Because star power is that scarce. This is why we can incrementally stock up on our "cash" all we want, we will still have no shot at a superstar unless 1. he forces his way here 2. we give up bluechip prospects that we currently do not possess. You have it completely backwards. The traditional route is close to the ONLY thing that works. Just about every championship team past or present drafted their own franchise player(or traded for him on draft day). Bulls- Jordan Rockets- Olajuwan Lakers- Kobe Heat- Wade Celtics- Pierce Celtics- Bird Lakers- Magic Spurs- Duncan We can go on all day. Even present day contenders Bulls- Rose Magic- Howard Thunder- Durant Mavs- Dirk Just because there are even more examples of teams who picked in the lotto and failed to win a championship is a testament to how hard it is to win. Not that it is a failed strategy. Because when teams DO win, it is almost guaranteed that they went the "traditional" route.
Not sure about trading Martin. But, assuming the next CBA is close to the current one... You will need roughly $10.5M of incoming contracts regardless of what draft picks are joined to the incoming contracts. Further, Martin is owed ~$25m for two more seasons. Therfore, his value is to teams on the brink of making it big NOW. That IMHO both severely limits the quality of the draft picks and eliminates teams trying to clear cap space for the summer of 2012. On the fence whether the idea is good or bad. But it needs to be future Center-centric and realistically has a limited number of trade partners.
I used to agree with the sell-high philosophy, somewhat anyway. But if that kind of thinking was implemented consistently, that would mean that we ALWAYS trade a player away whenever he is highly valued. That would mean we trade Lowry, Patterson, Lee, Scola, and maybe Budinger. We would always just keep the underdeveloped guys. And as soon as they are developed, we ship them off for some other potential players like Williams and Thabeet, and just hope that some day, one or two of these guys would become a bona fide superstar franchise player. But if these guys don't pan out, we actually lose value and go back to square one. This could be the reason why Adelman doesn't want to come back.
Phil Jackson retires. Rick Adelman is hired to coach the Lakers. Brian Shaw is hired to coach the Rockets. Rockets trade for Dwight Howard in a three team deal with the Lakers involving Andrew Bynum and Kevin Martin and any other players to match salaries and help all three teams. http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=3eepa3l <----- For example.
My idea in a diff. thread was to trade Martin for Paul George. They have two SFs with very similar games so it's easy to see why they would give him up. I felt like they defended Chicago pretty well but had long stretches where they didn't score. Seems to me like a perfect fit for a trade since George has star potential and Martin fills an immediate need.
As someone pointed out earlier, it's hard to take this guy seriously when he proposes that KM has to go because you can't build around him and ALSO says that Rudy Gay would be a great acquisition. Ignoring the contradictions, the fact that you would be willing to let go of Martin for a 2011 lotto pick (the same type of lotto pick that only cost Cleveland 12 mil in cash) proves that you're not about "selling high" because that is a joke of a return package for a player of KM's caliber. Just another tanking thread, move along people.
Too many posters are only in the business of asset building and not trying to win a championship. cough! cough! LTF cough!
I don't believe that trading Martin while his value is high means we'll trade EVERYONE while their high -- Martin is a unique situation. He's 28 and just played one of the more healthier seasons of his career; he was brought in to support Yao, who is no longer in our long term plans. He doesn't really have much room for improvement like say a Patterson does. It doesn't have to be implemented consistently, but it SHOULD be implemented with Kevin Martin right now. rpr521-- I appreciate the time you took in looking over the various options. It's refreshing to have someone evaluate an argument on the merits and have a thoughtful discussion vs. others with less knowledge who chime in with ignorant comments. I do believe there to be a match with Minnesota -- in my eyes Beasley/Johnson play the same position and Minnesota will have to pick one moving forward. With Rubio coming over, their main weakness is at SG, not PG, in my opinion. worzel-- I hope you're right. We may need to adjust what we consider fair value though. We acquired Martin by trading a backup PF -- it would be silly to assume "fair value" is Martin + for a superstar. jevon-- if we're unable to land a high draft choice with Martin, I wouldn't mind pursuing something similar to what you suggested. I'd hold out for more draft picks in addition to George though. roslol-- you keep missing the point. I wouldn't be for trading Martin if he was someone we could build our team around, much like Wade or Rose is as you mentioned. Martin does not belong in the same sentence as those guys. Arguing that the Bulls should sell high on Rose because I suggest the Rockets should sell high on Martin is such a poor parallel that I don't know where to start, so I won't. re: Gay -- he is a better player than Martin and a true #2 option in my eyes. If there was a way to get Gay at a discount (unlikely), I would absolutely do it. I would then use Gay and Martin to help me move up in the draft with -- of course I also deal in reality and not the fantasy of being able to land a top five pick with Chase Budinger and friends. coachbadlee -- first, did you ever pay up our bet!?! Quit dodging me. Second, this has absolutely everything to do with winning a championship. You're not going to win a championship with Kevin Martin and Luis Scola -- you're going to fight for 6th-8th seeds with them. It's time to rid ourselves of them and bring in some young talent that you CAN win with.
LeBron is playing well - Trade. Kobe is playing well - Trade. Derick Rose is playing well - Trade. Jowan Howard isn't playing well - Start him.
Well, I think you effectively are. You're right that the high draft picks are the more attractive trade bait. But, the franchise player you hypothetically bring will no longer have a supporting cast ready to win immediately. So, I would call it a building thru the draft strategy.
This team can go in a multitude of directions. Adelman leaving wasn't a true sign they are rebuilding. Rick leaving was more of a mutual decision than when Van Gundy left. It was philosophical based in regards to free agency and the type of players to acquire as well. I'm sure he also wants to have more of a sure shot winning a championship with an established playing rotation. No tinkering as to who plays best with who. Portland, Miami, Lakers for example. They are going to look to improve this team to make it championship caliber once again. Whether it be finally getting that superstar via trade or finding one in the draft. Not all top 5 players turn out to be superstars and not all superstars are top 5 picks.
Agreed completely on both LTF's strategy and Minnesota being the team to target (for the reasons mentioned). I think it's fairly obvious that Martin's value will never be higher than it is right now. Especially after putting it together for a full season given his reputation for being injury-prone. The defense isn't going to improve, he's not getting any younger...so really, how could his trade value ever get any greater? For all you Martin backers, I get it: it's a bit of a gamble. Kevin is great at what he does and he could be a superb third option on a championship caliber team. But HOW do you get this first or second option without gambling a bit? We already have Scola (whom I view as just about Martin's equal in terms of the whole 'yeah this dude is good but if he's your best player you're going to win 40 games every year' category). What if we can deal Martin to Minnesota in some type of deal and end up with shot at Kanter or Derrick Williams (assuming everything checks out with both)? At least you have a building block and clear direction for the franchise to move in. If we ended up with one of those guys, would losing Martin really be such a big deal? Understandably, you don't put all your eggs into one basket therefore I won't assume that the only smart trade involving Martin could be to Minnesota and ONLY to Minnesota. It's not like that. Simply shop him around and see what's available in terms of young talent. All I'm saying is this type of deal mentioned with Minnesota is likely our best case scenario of landing a franchise player since (as LTF pointed out earlier) our original strategy of shopping a bunch of talented young role players + expiring contracts has failed to net us this elusive big fish that we so desperately covet.
So you are not advocating sell-high as much as advocating sell Martin. That's totally another story. The merit of trading Martin shouldn't be because of his high value. That should just be one factor, and shouldn't be decisive. The REAL reason should be that he doesn't fit our future. That is debatable. Bottom line, if Martin is a good second option for a championship team, then you keep him and wait for the first option to come. If Martin is fool's gold, somewhat like Brooks, then you trade him while his value is still high.
