Who are the Greatest NBA Players that werent good Closers?

Shaq. He was almost a liability during the closing minutes of the game.

 

Shaq.

 

Nique of course, hell of a player and athlete....what did he ever win...

Well, seeing as how we as basketball fans define greatness as being able to win....and win big games. individually and statistically Lebron is a phenom but honestly he's not that guy in the 4th quarter and that's his knock...He's not consistent outside of 18 feet...

As an example I refer to the short stretch that Rondo guarded lebron during that match up a couple weeks ago....Lebron let Rondo guard him...honestly...Rondo's 180..lebrons 270, he needs to take that match up over. In my opinion that stretch showed how much of a winner Rondo is and how spoonfed Lebron has been the last several years....

In my opinion the guys I would classify as the best/greatest 'winners' in the nba today are (in no order) Kobe, Wade, and Rose. These guys can win you ball games hands down no questions asked. Rose is scary....

 

"Closer" is a mythological concept created to make sports seem more interesting. Every year, there is a new group of people at the top of the "clutch" stats, because those stats are arbitrary. Last year Kobe hit a bunch of game winners; this year he has been garbage in crunchtime. There are simply never enough data points to give the stat any merit.

Players who have good reputations as closers are those guys who can get off their own shot because that's what you have to do when you only have a few seconds. But these are also very low percentage shots and even the best "closers" miss way more than they make.

 

usually big guys.

shaq, ewing, yao, etc...

late in the game the lane closes down and you have to be able to create on the perimeter. post players usually can't get it done as closers.

 

"Clutch" is not a skill. You either get lucky hitting shots or you don't. Take for instance those last second threes that are off-balance and rushed. Sure, it takes some skill to somewhat accurately toss that up, but it all comes down to luck.

 

LeBron James

 

Nique and AI. Both of those guys would often bumble and make mistakes in tense situations, particularly against better teams. But at least AI made the Finals. Nique is one of the most overrated players in NBA history IMO.

I don't know if you would include Vince Carter as a great player, but back in his prime in the playoffs, he would often turn into a jump shooter who would knock the paint off rims. Half-man half a jump shooter. It was very obvious to me his stomach would get weak.

 

chris webber

 

Webber

 

not one of the greatest players ever but, thank god john starks couldn't close.

 

Karl Malone

 

Bingo. Karla always choked when it counted.

 

This guy speaks the truth.

 

i guess i'll make this my magnum opus on lebron not sucking in the clutch this season.

except he has been this season. he's just held to some ridiculous standard in which every heat loss and every shot he misses toward the end of a game (or if he dare lets wade or bosh have the ball) is indicative of his lack of clutch and his fear of the moment and every play he does make just gets ignored. it's kind of the opposite of kobe now (and yet almost the same way kobe was treated in the lean pre-gasol years) where every shot he hits shows what a legend he is and any mistakes and misses are just shrugged off like they never happened. here's a brief rundown of this season of lebron in close games:

1st boston game: lebron almost single-handedly leads a big comeback against boston that barely falls short in the final minute after a big ray allen 3 puts it away.

against the hornets, lebron drives to the basket and gets fouled on 2 straight possessions and hits all 4 free throws to give MIA their first lead with 1 minute to go (dwade turns it over next possession).

against memphis, lebron gets a dunk to tie it with 5 seconds left before rudy gay's game winner.

2nd dallas game, lebron gets a 3 point play with a minute left to cut the lead to 1.

against portland, lebron completely takes over, scoring 11 in the final 3:08, including a 3, leading a fastbreak that got james jones 2 ft, and his own to free throws with 24 seconds left that erases a 7 point lead with 1:39 to go and forces OT. lebron adds 7 more in OT.

against atlanta, lebron scores 5 points in the final minute, including a 3 point play with 35 seconds to go that gives miami a 2 point lead. joe johnson forces OT, lebron then scores 10 more in OT but miami still loses because they get no stops.

3rd knicks game, lebron is a horrendous 4-21, but then scores 4 straight points with 2 minutes to go to give miami the lead by 1, new york hits 2 straight 3, lebron gets 2 more layups to cut it back to 1 with 17 seconds left. chalmers of course misses the game tying 3 (miami has seemingly taken a game-tying 3 in every close game with about 6 different players this year and made only i think 1).

against indy, in the final 15 seconds lebron hits a jumper to put miami up 3 then hits 2 free throws to put the lead back to 3.

last chicago game, lebron gets a 3 point play to tie the game with 36 seconds left before deng hits the winner.

so by my count, that's 9 close games in only 3/4 of a season where lebron was making big plays down the stretch (often multiple plays) to either put a game away, erase a lead, or nearly complete a comeback. and the heat haven't had very many other close games to even make plays in, and this is with the supposedly much more clutch wade getting his own chances. that's a fairly impressive track record of showing up in the final minutes. and yet practically all that gets remembered is amare blocking him and lebron missing a free throw against the celtics, which wasn't surprising because conventional wisdom says he's such a choker at the free throw line and that miss was just expected.

except that on big free throws this season he's actually been very good. by my count, on free throws with under a minute left and the heat at most down 3 or at most up 2 (i.e. no one can argue they are pressure ft's), he's 12/13. but of course the one boston miss means he's just an unclutch choker.

this is why it's always hilarious to see perception vs reality. the perception among the less observant basketball fan is that rondo took on the challenge of guarding lebron and it really messed with lebron and showed his weaknesses and why the celtics are winners. the reality is that rondo only guarded lebron for a few possessions and they could hardly have been worse for the celtics' defense. i may have missed one but i had rondo directly on lebron (i.e. not on a switch) for 6 possessions.

1. the first time, lebron seemed surprised and definitely a little frustrated dribbling up the court, and the shotclock got down pretty low but lebron passed it to bosh, who garnett had left a little to shade over to rondo. bosh pump faked, a recovering garnett went for it and fouled bosh. pretty good defensive possession, poor result.

2. lebron takes rondo in post, double team comes, lebron finds mike miller open for 3 with literally nobody within 15 feet of him. miller misses so good result but bad defensive possession.

3. lebron ends up giving it to wade for this possession, wade drives in for uncontested layup. didn't have much to do with rondo/lebron matchup, still really bad defensive possession.

4. rondo and garnett try to trap lebron at halfcourt and foul lebron. pierce starts guarding lebron for a while.

5. rondo back on lebron, lebron goes to the post, double team, behind the back pass to big Z for a layup and 1.

6. lebron back in post, gets into lane, rondo fouls him and he makes the shot.

so 6 possessions, 1 ends in a non-shooting foul, the other 5 end in a shooting foul, 3 layups, and a wide open 3 for a total of 9 points on 5 scoring possessions (the open 3 could've made it 12). so the myth of course (played up by replays of rondo hanging all over lebron) is that rondo boldly stepped up and threw the heat's whole offense off with his intensity. the reality is the heat had one of their best offensive stretches of the game.

except that wade has been pretty awful down the stretch of close games and the lakers have actually been outscored in clutch situations with kobe on the floor this year (kobe's epic will to win and ability to will wins apparently doesn't always work).

 

^ That is one great post, francis 4 prez.

 

Players that I have watched and I would want on my team in last quarter of a do-or-die game. These players more often than not are/were absolutely money when it counts/counted.

Hakeem
Kobe
Jordan
Bird
Kevin Johnson
Steve Nash


Players that I would want no part of in a do-or-die 4th quarter...

Vince Carter
Chris Webber
Peja Stojakovic (the greatest consistent choker I have seen)
Karl Malone

 

totally agree with your sidenote