1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

Wanted: Player(s) who can change the team's culture

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by RV6, Nov 24, 2010.

  1. RV6

    RV6 Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2008
    Messages:
    25,522
    Likes Received:
    1,109
    I was reading this piece on Kobe from earlier today and I thought this part is basically referring to our current situation:


    How to truly make players better, what that really means,” he said. “It’s not just passing to your guys and getting them shots. It’s not getting this or that many players into double figures. That’s bull[expletive]. That’s not how you win championships. You’ve got to change the culture of your team – that’s how you truly make guys better. In a way, you have to help them to get the same DNA that you have, the same focus you have, maybe even close to the same drive. That’s how you make guys better.

    “I’ve never understood this stuff, where a star player sits out and a team goes into the tank. Well, they need him because he makes them better. Well, if he’s making them better, they should be able to survive without him. That’s how you lead your guys. You’ve got to be able to make guys suffice on their own, without you. If you’re there all the time and they take you away, they shouldn’t need a respirator.

    Once I understood all that, I looked at things completely different. I took my hands off. I didn’t try to control them. I let them make decisions, make their own [expletive]-ups and I was there to try and help them through it.”



    Pretty much sounds like he's describing what we're lacking. I've thought before that Houston needed players who demanded better from others. I want someone to frown at players on the court. Someone to call the team out when necessary. There's definitely ways of doing this without being a bully or disrespecting teammates, and it's something you'll see from guys who led their teams to championships. Even Dream had a way of doing it, in his own gentle way, and more recently Kobe, TD, Manu, and KG. You could argue these were just great teams led by great players, but i think some guys clearly have this quality, while many others dont.

    I think our team is built on too many players who are easy-going and friends, which makes them unable to be critical of each other. In the past, guys like Rafer, Ron, and Tmac were seen as cancers, but they had more of this attitude than anyone we currently have. Perhaps Ariza had some of that in him and that's why this team has slowly lost their drive, heart, and ability to regulate themselves when guys are injured. CP3 seems to have it as well and could be why the Hornets came together quickly and could surprise many in the playoffs this year. However, this Rockets team is definitely on a respirator as it waits for their stars to return.

    So do we have anyone close to this mentality? I dont think so...the closest may be chuck. He's the guy you've seen in the practice clips talking smack and urging guys to do better. Battier is more likely to give advice, which just isnt the same thing. Brooks, Martin, and Yao have similar personalities and are not likely to go out of their way much to say what should be said. I dont see anyone on the bench who has it. Scola can be seen talking to others, but i dont think he demands better, bet he is the one guy who has the right to do it.

    What Kobe says about letting players make their own mistakes is also something this team is really bad at. Rather than letting it happen, we see guys like Scola walking away from their own man on D to help cover a potential defensive mistake by another player. It's what friends do for each other, but it can be taken too far and it hurts them more than it helps. It makes sense to let them mess up and help them correct it in the future, rather than always trying to help cover for them. It's part of why our defensive rotations are all screwed up.

    The probability of acquiring a superstar has been discussed recently and i believe it's a low one. Plus, guys we have been after, like Melo and Bosh, don't really have this frame of mind. The team may be better off looking for this quality in semi-stars and that may be enough to get this team on the right track, but who do y'all think are some non-star players with this quality? I think one is Joakim Noah. Although he's not great, he's a very good rebounder/defender and he's definitely the type to inspire, push, and make demands on a team. This is something he said about a season ago about losing:


    "It's a disease, and it spreads throughout the whole team," Noah said calmly. "It's just really, really hard right now because regardless what we do, there's no light at the end of the tunnel, especially for this season.

    "We're not really playing with a lot of pride and respect for the jersey. It's just hard because you can't point at anybody individually. It's just our togetherness as a team is just bad. You can talk about Florida. But if you're a Bulls fan, I'm not a champion anymore. We're losers. We lose. That's all we do. That's all there is to say.

    "There's going to have to be a serious team talk before the end of the year about our approach to every game and things that are going to be tolerated and not tolerated. Not little stupid things. I'm talking about winning and the sacrifices that need to be done to win."



    He may be someone to pursue if the team decides to give up on Yao. Who are other players who can help this team on the court and in the process change the culture of this team?
     
  2. The Hard G

    The Hard G Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2010
    Messages:
    22
    Likes Received:
    1
    I mean, you are either born with it or you aren't.

    We need to make some trades asap!
     
  3. Akim523

    Akim523 Member

    Joined:
    May 17, 2008
    Messages:
    3,733
    Likes Received:
    162
    Nice read.
    I think Kobe nailed it. Thats exactly how we got that 22 games winning streak. Yaos out? No problem, the team still played hard and was confident enough to win.
     
  4. iconoclastic

    iconoclastic Member

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2007
    Messages:
    6,100
    Likes Received:
    422
    Kyle Lowry, Brad Miller
     
  5. RV6

    RV6 Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2008
    Messages:
    25,522
    Likes Received:
    1,109
    That why i loved the Miller signing. I really thought he'd bring some of that attitude, but i haven't seen it. He's done a good job at directing guys offensively, but he's not making much noise on the court other than to complain about calls. He also seems less interested in taking on this role once he's on the bench. We need someone who's got that switch "on" the whole time.

    I see it in Kyle Lowry, but the point Kobe was making is it needs to be instilled in others. You can't just have it and show up to play because when you're gone you'll take that attitude with you. We saw last year the effect his injury had on the team when he sat out. We need someone that can influence the team further than what Lowry can.
     
  6. rhino17

    rhino17 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2006
    Messages:
    17,824
    Likes Received:
    4,096
    Thats why I loved Ron here. I thought he was the biggest impact addition in a long time because his toughness rubbed off on a lot of the young guys
     
  7. Old Man Rock

    Old Man Rock Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 1999
    Messages:
    7,157
    Likes Received:
    518
    First the problem isn't heart and desire for the Rockets. I have never seen more in a rockets team than in that 7 game series against the Lakers.

    Second Kobe is a major talent but he doesn't know what he is talking about. Make no mistake about it that team would not have won a championship without the addition of Gasol and Artest. It has nothing to do with Kobe's will. Sure he is that goto guy that carries them in the 4th. But Gasol and Artest brought the grit and desire to push them over the top. Kobe just brought the talent.

    There is some truth to what he says but he is not the motivator. In this league there is a certain amount of toughness that is needed to compete... There is a certain amount of talent that is also needed to compete and there is a certain amount of athleticism that is needed to compete.

    With this current roster we are lacking in all these areas. Even with Yao and AB back we are deficient in athleticism and a bit in toughness. But there intangibles that we excel in. What we lack in talent and athleticism we partially make up in intelligence and heart. I still think we need a trade for athleticism and toughness. One player could make the difference, maybe.
     
  8. ryano2009

    ryano2009 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2009
    Messages:
    7,626
    Likes Received:
    5,002

    Gerald Wallace ??
     
  9. RV6

    RV6 Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2008
    Messages:
    25,522
    Likes Received:
    1,109
    When guys aren't running faster after losing again and again there's definitely some lack of desire. When guys are getting beat for rebounds after it's been a continous problem, then there's lack of heart. I think we're so used to saying these guys have it that we are giving them credit for it as long as they show up to the game and it shouldn't be that way. These guys need to show it and prove they still have it to be given credit for it.

    When fans refer to "Kobe's will" it's assumed it's a current action. As in he's willing them to win at that moment, but the point of making it a team culture is to implant that attitude before the playoffs, before the finals, so that they each have a determined will, rather than needing Kobe's to pull them through. Like i mentioned earlier, Ron has some of it and I think Gasol is too good of a player and teammate not to pick up on it, so yes they definitely help a lot. However, i think players, especially younger players, need to fear letting the leaders down in order to perform their best and push beyond being average or doing just enough. We don't have that at all. If these younger players don't perform like they should you're not going to see yao, battier, scola, or chuck really come at them asking for better. If the vets can do it to the younger players, then they sure can't do it to each other. With them you're going to get understanding, sympathy and some advice, which is like keeping these guys on training wheels.

    I do agree we're lacking toughness, but that's not something you have to be born with. It's mostly an attitude that even the small and thin guys can have and part of this culture Kobe is refering to. For example, when Nash is brought up as a possible acquisition for brooks, the main complaint is "he's just as soft or more than brooks", but that's not true. Nash may not be good defensively either, but he still mixes it up with other players. Watch him operate and he's a lot more physical than it appears, especially off the ball. There's no reason brooks and Martin can't do similar things to increase their toughness. Nash doesn't do it because he's bigger, stronger, and badder, it's just an attitude.
     
  10. DaDakota

    DaDakota If you want to know, just ask!

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 1999
    Messages:
    124,044
    Likes Received:
    32,950
    Miller?

    He is the laziest big man on defense I have ever seen, he just grabs people as they go by.....never moves his feet.

    DD
     
  11. Shaud

    Shaud Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2008
    Messages:
    18,350
    Likes Received:
    451
    It's not like the Rockets are getting blown out. They just aren't talented right now. Too many injuries to key players. People can bring up the year we won 22 games in a row but it's not often where key a bunch of key players go down and you can still hold it together.

    This team desperately needs a playmaker/closer. The Rockets are close at the end but they don't have anyone to go to at the end.

    Kyle Lowry is not going to get it done in the clutch he can't shoot and should not be shooting at the end of games like he did last game.

    Then there is Kevin Martin. Mr. I'm looking to go to the free throw line instead of trying to score the basket. He is the main guy on the perimeter for us since Brooks is out and Martin just can't handle being the guy to win for us late in games.

    Battier - C'mon son

    Scola - Probably our best option but I would rather our closer at the end of games be someone on the perimeter who can make plays for himself and other guys.


    Brooks is our best option when healthy and he's not a great closer but he's our best closer which is the problem.
     
  12. RV6

    RV6 Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2008
    Messages:
    25,522
    Likes Received:
    1,109
    I think it's important to make a distinction between what kobe is saying and simply having tough players or defenders. It's not quite the same thing. The key here is what he says about players being able to survive on their own. It's like a having a big brother. It's great if he's tough, bad and beats up everyone who picks on you. Technically, together you two are "tough", but what happens when he leaves? You won't be able to survive. The difference would be having a big brother who not only has your back, but urges you to have your own incase one day he's not there to help. He's going to be on you all the time, maybe to get stronger, meaner and have a different mindset. When he sees you getting punked by a kid he's going to tell you to deal with it as he watches closely, rather than doing the dirty work for you every time. If you mess up, he's going to help you get it right next time. He'll have influenced your way of thinking so much that eventually that attitude and frame of mind will automatically kick in for you, even when he's not around. At that point you make it your own and that's how you'll be able to survive without him.
     
  13. Don FakeFan

    Don FakeFan Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2010
    Messages:
    939
    Likes Received:
    43
    Brooks. This little guy has skills, gut and heart. He has been proving his doubters wrong in his whole life.

    Brooks is a winner except he failed to shut up his haters whatsoever.
     
  14. MightyMog

    MightyMog Member

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2009
    Messages:
    1,847
    Likes Received:
    193
    RV6

    Most people won't even understand the true meaning of what was discussed in that Article

    They will just take it as Kobe being a douche....


    Great Leaders, Lead by example.

    We have no leaders on this team and if we do have a leader, he is incapable of leading due to his limitations on the court.
     
  15. el_locoteee

    el_locoteee Member

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2007
    Messages:
    3,136
    Likes Received:
    240
    The problem is his team always sucks. He is not a difference maker.
     
  16. mdrowe00

    mdrowe00 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2008
    Messages:
    2,666
    Likes Received:
    3,889
    Well, RV6,

    ....as far as Kobe Bryant is concerned....if all he had to learn how to do was to let his teammates figure out how to survive on their own....

    ...it's amazing how much easier it was for him to figure that out with Lamar Odom and Pau Gasol and Ron Artest than it ever was with Kwame Brown and Smush Parker and Chris Mihm.

    Sooner or later, Bryant will learn to give his teammates some credit for his success. They're just as much champions as he is. Just like the other guys lost the same playoff games he lost.

    But I see the point. Actually going out and winning is tougher to do than talking about it. And if you package the attempt nicely enough, it may be enough to pass most eye tests.

    Until somebody reminds you of the final score or the win column.

    We do tend to offer words like "cancer" to players who we may not particularly care for. But that does seem to trend toward expectations for that player than anything else. It would be blasphemous, for example, to call Shane Battier a cancer, because he passes most everyone's eye test when it comes to winning.

    Except that he plays offense poorly for the amount of minutes he plays, and has always been, at best, a second-tier defender (and not the defender his legend has created).

    Performance (and subsequently, results) are more quantifiable than effort.

    Unless you're sweet on a player or two. Then you find yourself creating a whole new category for them to contribute to in order to justify having them on your team.

    Locker room leader. Good teammate. Witty. Coachable. Electable.

    No-stats all-star.

    Unbelievable.

    What the Rockets lack is an anchor, RV6. A player whom you base you whole offensive and defensive philosophy on, after the fact. You can always be a great defensive team with a quality big man patrolling the middle. You can always find a way to score when you have an elite playmaker in the backcourt or on the wings, when your Princeton offense can't get out of park.

    It's the reason why so much rope is given to Yao Ming (aside from the fact that he's an overgrown panda—I want to give him a big hug myself sometimes). Nobody else the Rockets have can begin to approach what Yao can give the Rockets—and that's a chance. If anybody thinks that Aaron Brooks is enough of a reason for the Lakers to be afraid of the Rockets…well…

    …homers are homers. D'oh!

    I look at San Antonio, and particularly at Tim Duncan. He's now a glorified role player, but he has the same job he's always had for them—defending the paint and rebounding the basketball—the primary job of all big men. He does both as well as he ever has. Hardly ever see Duncan so much as scowl at anybody, friend or foe (except Joey Crawford).

    Looking the part isn't doing your part, to me, RV6. Taking credit is easier than giving credit.

    And winning covers a multitude of sins. The "cancers" and "malcontents" the Rockets had here recently won, by and large. They didn't try as much as they DID.

    I suppose, though, that if looks could kill, the Rockets would've been the only team left standing long before the season started...
     
  17. leebigez

    leebigez Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2001
    Messages:
    15,485
    Likes Received:
    586
    Pretty much what I've said for awhile now. You can't have a team full of knuckleheads, but you can't have a team with a bunch of go along get along types either. Look at La and the last couple of players they have added to their runs, artest,barnes,brown,blake. All of those guys except blake have a edge to them. Some call them punks like artest and barnes and even last year when barnes and kobe were about to fight, but Kobe respects ferocity in a big way. The lakers went from being kinda soft to a team with some guys with dirty streaks in their blood. You need those type of players, but the leaders and the coaches better be strong. The reason why the rockets haven't aquired these types is because neither yao,mcgrady,nor adelman could contain these kind of players. Shane nor chuck are good enough to do it either. So the rockets go the get along route and be safe. They have been a leaderless ship for awahile now and right now, it just exudes even more.
     
  18. UTAllTheWay

    UTAllTheWay Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2009
    Messages:
    5,859
    Likes Received:
    2,316
    Let's just trade for Gerald Wallace now and get this thing headed in the right direction.
     
  19. RV6

    RV6 Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2008
    Messages:
    25,522
    Likes Received:
    1,109
    Sort of....but i think you're still thinking primarily of having "bulldog" type players, and while that certainly can be helpful, i don't think they're always the kind who changes the culture. They can change a team during a game they're playing in, but im not sure guys like Barnes and Blake influence guys to change their habits and way of thinking. Their influence is more direct and on the court.
     
  20. abc2007

    abc2007 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2007
    Messages:
    8,303
    Likes Received:
    64
    We had a great team's culture, but it fades away ...
     

Share This Page

  • About ClutchFans

    Since 1996, ClutchFans has been loud and proud covering the Houston Rockets, helping set an industry standard for team fan sites. The forums have been a home for Houston sports fans as well as basketball fanatics around the globe.

  • Support ClutchFans!

    If you find that ClutchFans is a valuable resource for you, please consider becoming a Supporting Member. Supporting Members can upload photos and attachments directly to their posts, customize their user title and more. Gold Supporters see zero ads!


    Upgrade Now