Here is an article from this morning's Chronicle. My only question after reading it is this: Why do people, in their never ending quest to not offend others, never consider that there might be fundamental differences between ethnic groups? Some groups may actually be higher achievers than others, and it might be a trait or characteristic that is specific to that one group. Empirical evidence supports it, and what better proving ground than a free enterprise economic system like America's? The article: Survey: Area Asians have head start Most immigrants already educated before they arrive By MIKE SNYDER Copyright 2002 Houston Chronicle Asian-Americans, as members of Harris County's fastest-growing ethnic community, are enjoying economic success largely because most arrived in this country as well-educated adults, the 2002 Houston Area Survey shows. The findings raise questions about the stereotype of Asian-Americans as a "model minority" who succeed solely because of hard work, high intelligence and strong family values, said Stephen Klineberg, the Rice University sociology professor who directs the survey. This misconception of Asians as a homogenous community of affluent overachievers, fueled in part by the many Asian surnames among spelling bee winners and National Merit Scholars, may impede the availability of social services to Asians who need them, Klineberg said. It also contributes, he said, to unfair attitudes about other minority groups, since Asians' successes create the notion that "by implication, Houston's blacks and Latinos have only themselves to blame if they have not achieved equal success." Klineberg will release the survey findings with City Councilman Gordon Quan, a Chinese-American, at 5:30 p.m. today at the Southern Chinese News Building, 11122 Bellaire Blvd. The data on Asians are a supplement to Klineberg's annual survey, conducted since 1982, of county residents' demographic characteristics and attitudes on a wide range of issues. Results of the basic survey were reported in May. This year's Asian survey, along with one conducted in 1995, represents the most extensive analysis of Asian populations in any U.S. city, Klineberg said. "It is much more difficult to obtain representative samples from Houston's increasingly important Asian communities because they still constitute a relatively small proportion of the Houston population as a whole," -- about 6 percent, Klineberg said. U.S. census figures show that the county's Asian population grew from 109,878 in 1990 to 193,059 in 2000, a 75.7 percent rise, surpassing even the 73.5 percent increase in the number of Hispanics. Within the city's diverse Asian-American community, the survey shows, Vietnamese and Indians recorded the fastest growth in the 1990s, followed by Filipinos, Chinese and Koreans. The survey findings regarding distribution of nationalities among Asians here correspond closely to census figures, strengthening confidence in the survey data's reliability, Klineberg said. The survey shows that the county's Asian community is newer to this country than other immigrant groups and far better-educated than even Anglos. For example, 68.8 percent of the Asians surveyed arrived in this country as adults, compared with 52.5 percent of Hispanics and 6 percent of blacks. Only 3.2 percent of Asians reported that one or both parents were born in the United States, compared with 27.5 percent of Hispanics and 93.6 percent of blacks. Among Asian immigrants, 59.1 percent have a bachelor's or graduate degree, compared with 44.4 percent of U.S.-born Anglos, 23 percent of U.S.-born blacks, 15.4 percent of U.S.-born Hispanics and 8.5 percent of Hispanic immigrants. Asked their father's occupation when they were 16 years old, 48 percent of Asian respondents said their fathers were doctors, lawyers, professors, engineers, corporate executives or other professionals. This was true of just 39 percent of Anglos and 17 percent of blacks and Latinos. "Asians have been relatively successful in Houston primarily because they come from families in their countries of origin whose educational and occupational attainments far exceed the average for native-born Americans," Klineberg said. This pattern, he said, reflects an Asian "brain drain" based on immigration policies that grant priority to people with "needed professional skills." The survey shows, however, that incomes of the county's Asian-Americans are not keeping pace with their impressive educational and professional backgrounds. Only 42.5 percent of Asians reported annual household incomes of more than $50,000, compared with 55.2 percent of Anglos. Klineberg said a probable reason is Asians' difficulty in transferring their educational credentials into a new society, combined with discrimination. The diversity of Harris County's Asian community, Klineberg said, is reflected in the different reasons for emigrating reported by Asians of various nationalities. Among Vietnamese, for example, 72.4 percent said they left their homeland because of "war, politics or (a desire for) freedom." Educational opportunities were the most common reason cited by Chinese and Taiwanese immigrants, while Indians, Pakistanis and Filipinos most often cited employment opportunities. This diversity also is reflected in the levels of educational attainment among Asians of different nationalities, Klineberg said. The highest educational levels were reported by Filipinos, with 77.6 percent holding a college degree, followed by Indians and Pakistanis (68.9 percent), Chinese/Taiwanese (66.2 percent) and Vietnamese (37.7 percent). Vietnamese immigrants, who arrived as refugees from the war in their homeland, "are generally facing more difficult challenges than other Asians in Houston," Klineberg wrote in a report on the survey findings. "Houston's Southeast Asians are also significantly less likely than other Asians to have health insurance and more likely to report problems buying groceries to feed their families. "Clearly, many Vietnamese are having a hard time in this city, and they may be less likely to receive the help they need, in a language they can understand, from a wider community that continues to believe that all Asians are doing fine."
do you mean fundamental difference for biological reasons??? or sociological reasons??? i'm inclined to believe that certain cultures value education, as a whole, more than others do...i think that's pretty evident.
This article reiterates the fact that many Asian-Americans in Houston have discovered the same formula that the rest of America has used for the past two centuries to succeed here: Education and hard work. It definitely pays off. Do biological differences exist that pre-dispose Asians to succeed and advance higher than say hispanics or blacks? I have no clue. But I am certain that being around educated people all your life and seeing family members work hard and value education would rapidly put Asians in a position to where they would have an excellent "internal value system" ingrained in them. If they did not grow up in this environment, but instead grew up in an environment where government handouts were the means to pay for bills and one parent was in prison for dealing drugs, then I would be surprised if this same value system were ingrained in them.
Keep in mind that we are observing Asian-Americans. If you go to China, you will probably not find a country of overachievers. China has a population of 2 billion most of whom are peasants. Only a small fraction of the most motivated are able to leave and find better opportunities in the United States. This is the small fraction that we see.
Here is an article from this morning's Chronicle. My only question after reading it is this: Why do people, in their never ending quest to not offend others, never consider that there might be fundamental differences between ethnic groups? Some groups may actually be higher achievers than others, and it might be a trait or characteristic that is specific to that one group. Empirical evidence supports it, Because empirical evidence doesn't support it. The empirical evidence shows (simplified): Minorities in good schools succeed. Whites in good schools succeed. Minorities in bad schools fail. Whites in bad schools fail. Minorities tend to be concentrated in bad schools due to economics. Which is the more appropriate conclusion? (1) Minorities fail more often because they are concentrated in areas with bad schools. (2) Race is the primary factor, rather than the quality of the schools.
Which leaves the question, Are they peasants because of the system or because the don't have the drive to do better? From what I know of the system over there, I would say the former. It's a known fact that the majority of Asians highly value hard work, education and family. These are all traits that when used together in a somewhat fair system, leads them to excel in the things they try. And no, I dont have a link to prove that..
Stick any kid in the kind of Asian family that my Asian friends grew up in, and they could not have helped but be successful. I'm envious of them. My parents never pushed me at all and while I can't complain about my standard of living, part of me will always wonder how I would have turned out if I'd had parents who'd pushed me to try to achieve.
But what constitutes a bad school? Is a bad school a function of its minority student population, or would it also be bad if it were filled with white students?
Yeah but I think that you're basing your conclusion on what you've seen in the United States. If you take a random group of people from China and place them in the United States, would they do as well? I'm not so sure. The article suggests that this is what happened to Vietnamese war refugees and they are not doing as well as other groups from Asia.
So why do Hispanics, as an immigrant group, receive preferential treatment under affirmative actions policies, yet Vietnamese don't? Are both groups not stuggling, under represented minorities? Just because the Vietnamese journey to America began at a different latitude/longitude than hispanics', they aren't entitled to receive affirmative action? Hmmm.
But what constitutes a bad school? Is a bad school a function of its minority student population, or would it also be bad if it were filled with white students? I would think bad schools would be the ones with the least money, fewest resources, and lowest ranked/paid teachers. I would hope any reasonable study would determine the school's "quality" separate from the students that attend it, but I don't remember the details of the studies.
Major, do you have any objective facts and links to support these claims? Let's talk when you do, thanks.
The article is saying that Vietnamese-Americans are kind of getting a bum deal because they are being lumped in with more affluent Asian-Americans. When you check the box "Asian-Pacific Islander" your included in a group encompasses more than half the population of the world!
Major, do you have any objective facts and links to support these claims? Let's talk when you do, thanks. Unfortunately, I don't have the study on-hand - I saw it last year sometime. Do you have any facts to support your claim? The article you posted supports the exact opposite of what you say. It says that the Asians that come here do well because they are better educated.
...and therefore we will discount your claims appropriately. Actually, yes I do. My claim was that some groups may be higher achievers than others. Here is the link to support that: http://www.maec.org/stats.html Uh, no. What I'm saying is that there are more variables in the equation than education. I strongly believe education plays a role, and my link above supports that, but the question I pose is whether it plays the *only* role.
Actually, yes I do. My claim was that some groups may be higher achievers than others. Here is the link to support that: http://www.maec.org/stats.html There are no stats in this study that show anything of value. Nowhere does it break down quality of education out of the system, so what does that tell us? The only way you can find if anything other than quality-of-education has an impact is by taking that variable out of the equation, ie, having a study that shows income of minorities/whites from good schools vs. bad schools. Then you have to take out other variables such as systemic discrimination (minorities -- and, even moreso, women -- performing the exact same tasks as majority men tend to make less money) to determine whether there is a causation. Correlation and causation are two very, very different things. Uh, no. What I'm saying is that there are more variables in the equation than education. I strongly believe education plays a role, and my link above supports that, but the question I pose is whether it plays the *only* role. Again, you have yet to provide any evidence that race is a factor, as you claimed: <I>Some groups may actually be higher achievers than others, and it might be a trait or characteristic that is specific to that one group. Empirical evidence supports it</I> The article you provided certainly did not do so. In fact, it specifically counteracts that claim: <I>Asian-Americans, as members of Harris County's fastest-growing ethnic community, are enjoying economic success largely because most arrived in this country as well-educated adults, ... The findings raise questions about the stereotype of Asian-Americans as a "model minority" who succeed solely because of hard work, high intelligence and strong family values, said Stephen Klineberg ... "Asians have been relatively successful in Houston primarily because they come from families in their countries of origin whose educational and occupational attainments far exceed the average for native-born Americans," Klineberg said. </I> It specifically states that Asian success appears to be more a result of education than anything inherent in Asians.
TJ, The name of the study of biological differences between ethnic groups is "eugenics." It has what you might call a bad reputation, since it was near and dear to the heart of one Adolf Hitler. Pol Pot also apparently found the topic appealing. Read up on it if you're interested. Seriously, there are some neonazis and other oddballs out there that publish literature on the "study" of eugenics. If there are intellectual differences linked to ethnicity, I would argue (from a scientific perspective) that the differences are too small to measure against a background of immense sociological and individual personal differences. In Physics, for instance, I see really smart people of all types. And in my student populations (if you trust me to judge ), I see some not especially brilliant students of absolutely every ethnic variation. I'm not a biologist, but one ethnically related thing I really do believe in is called "hybrid vigor," which is why mut dogs are often much more healthy than pure breds. If you bring completely different gene pools together in breeding (dogs or people), the offspring often take the best traits from both pools. I hope this doesn't sound racist to anybody, but Tiger Woods seems like kind of an excellent example of hybrid vigor in humans. And the entire island of England or the state of Idaho is an example of what happens when you don't mix gene pools enough. jk!
I did a study on Chinese-Americans. Their average income is higher than Anglo-Americans and their iq is supposedly a few points higher. I think the differences are strictly cultural when painting with such a broad brush. Affirmative action has done jack squat for Asians, and I'm actually proud of that fact. Physically, I think there are slight differences among the ethnic groups. I've been called the dumbest Asian in the world before, lol.
I actually based my conclusion on what little I know about the Asian culture. I have always heard and seen that Asian families put alot of emphasis on education and hard work to achieve their goals.. The few asians I have known(Chinese, Japanese and one Korean family) have all had these qualities. As for the Vietnamese part, I don't know..I haven't ever known any Vietnamese. I would assume that since their country has been in such a state of disarray for so long, that maybe the education system is not as highly developed as the ones from other Asian countries, but that's just a guess on my part.
