you are kidding right, the actually did that? man i will never do that. Some people just need attention and love poor guys.
When is this bullsh!t going to stop? How many pledges have to die before someone realizes that something has to be done? In the past they were used for philanthropic purposes. Now Im not sure why they are even around. The whole concept is BS....
The people that defend hazing are often ones that went through it then do it to others. It is designed to narrow your mind so that you stilt what you value to those go through it with you and do it too you, rather than open your mind and help people judge persons based on their individual qualities instead of a label (or set of letters in this case). It is like bullying and child abuse, yeah it exists and is passed on by victims to future victims, but I don't think hazing (which is used by gangs and fringe groups trying to brainwash peoples) is one of the redeemable human qualities. Further, I don’t think the comparison of tough treatment and sometimes abuse of men in uniform who are being prepared to fight wars (you can argue whether the humiliation part of hazing is really necc. here too) to the hazing of a bunch of 18-20 year old college guys and gals to prepare them to party or study hard together is particularly relevant. Certainly not all frats are bad nor are all (or most) frat guys evil. But frats have been used for years as tools of discrimination, segregation (based on color, money, status, etc.) and elitism. Some have gotten away from that as well as from hazing, others have not. IMO more often than frats restrict peoples you openness to others on some pretty shallow reasons, but I am sure there are some frats ran in such a way that don’t do this.
There are good people and idiots in all walks of life including frats and sororities. My own experience was at UT. I was either called a "hippie" or asked for drugs or welcomed to parties assuming I was in the band. One guy at a frat alternately told me I was the coolest guy in the world when I played his party and then, when I said hello to him on the bus, said, "Yeah, right. Freak." Niiiice. I also have had friends who were in them and had no problems. It is highly dependant on the person. However, I would say that those who generalize about frats being awful are pretty much wrong, but I'd also say that those who defend them sound insecure.
Desetr Scar just hit a grand slam. I heard about a UT frat, who when they banquets and other social functions, would request all-black servers. This was in the mid 90's. Not too long ago.
See, I disagree. Yes, I went through hazing, but that doesn't make me want to seek revenge. Maybe others do, but here's one person who doesn't take pleasure in being cruel to younger guys who rely on you for trust and leadership. Personally, I think fraternities can foster an open mind and not the opposite. I won't lie to you: I often seek friends who are similar to me. Going to a fraternity that's diverse in culture, though, has opened my mind and allowed me to associate with others I wouldn't normally call my friends. Now, not every fraternity is like this, but mine was, and I learned a great deal. Icehouse (in this thread) said it best: "Hazing is the best way to bring a large group of people together and get them to learn about one another...to bond with one another. This bonding is what makes fraternities a true brotherhood." You think the Chess Club or Mock Trial Club are a close bunch? I have yet to hear from anyone (in this thread) who's been in a fraternity and not liked it. You can express your opinion on fraternities all you want, but "don't knock it till you try it." There are thousands of chapters out there at hundreds of colleges, yet we hear very few negative stories. The media has one motto: If it bleeds, it leads. People latch on to those negative articles and immediately assume the worst about every fraternity/sorority organziation. What about all the money my fraternity has helped raise for charity by putting on a haunted house, helping to build houses, running/biking in awareness races, volunteering at soup kitchens, etc.? What about my brothers helping me study for exams? What about my brothers allowing me to crash on ANY of their couches at ANY time (with no advance warning)? What about the alumni hooking up their brothers with jobs, legal/doctor advice, favors, etc.? What about the fact that I met my future wife through the Greek system? Not every house is an Axis of Evil, like some of you suggest. Like I said before, I think some of you probably did rush and couldn't get in, souring your opinion on the Greek system. Well, let me tell you that I pledged as a sophomore because I got dinged from a house my freshman year. I just picked myself up and got back on the horse the following year. I still have friends from the house that originally dinged me, too...
This is one of the biggest problems I had with frats at UH, and it sounds like the same applies at UT. The frats are so racially segregated, it's ridiculous. Even at UH, one of the most diverse campuses in the country, the frats are predominantly white. For the most part, people of other races join their own black or Asian or Mexican frats. It just seems really ridiculous to me on both sides, and counterproductive to what being at a university is all about. It also seems pretty 'insecure', as Jeff put it, to blame the victims in this. It seems pretty hypocritical to me to say 'let's not blame the frats until we have all the facts' and right after you say 'part of the blame lies with the victim' , even though you don't have the facts about the victim.
goophers, I gotta admit, they Asian frats at UT give off a really "bad vibe." Don't seem to be so friendly.
You have GOT to be kidding me! You hope the victims family doesn't get money because a fraternity took an initiation to far!? But people have to take responsibility for their actions, yet you don't want the victims to get retribution. What the fraternity is supposed to say "sorry for killing those two girls, but they shouldn't have let us do that to them!". I hope they get full pay or close to it. That's like saying someone who gets shot at night deserved it because that is when most crimes happen and they shouldn't have been outside at night.
Well, considering that UH is predominately white, why would it be suprising that most of the frats there are as well? I don't know your classification, but my guess is that you haven't been looking enough because I spend a lot of time at UH, and I see at least a few frats for every community. Hell, A PHI A, a black frat, won organization of the year last year, and it wasn't their first time. How is that a problem? From a minority perspective, most of these schools do not provide enough outlets for minotiry students, hence these organizations. The first black frat was founded because the founding members could not get into any other ones. Most of the frats that I know of are segregated mainly because people of other races choose not to join them. I know people that have crossed over and been accepted with no problem (of course, you will always have your exceptions). And just because I join a frat that is 90% black, does not mean I still can't join the diverse Business Club or the Engineerinc Club, etc. It is designed to make you spend a lot of time around others and learn about them. How is learning more about people unlike you, from different backrounds, not opening your mind?
For the record, minority frats have very different historical underpinnings than many predominantly White frats (many of which used to be all White all Protestant). Most of the minority frats I have heard about through friends of mine have very low rates (so than money is as small as barrier as possible to join) and are extremely active in outreach/community service (e.g., trying to get other minority kids interested in college/school). I am not saying these historical differences always dominant contemporary frats--but in many cases I think there are some subtle (or even not so subtle) influences. BTW-you don't have to go to jail or be in a gang to recognize dysfunction in them and that hazing in them is a "bad thing". I am not equating frats with those places, but using this as an example that the "Don't knock it until you try it" argument isn't very persuasive to me regarding hazing in frats. Finally as I said before most frat guys are fine people. If I was giving advice to a family member interested in a frat (or sor. for that matter) I'd say look for a few cues: 1) do they have low rates (otherwise they have already set up an exclusionary barrier, 2) are they diverse in ethnicity and religion (at least relative to the student body population), and 3) do they not tolerate hazing. I am sure some frats meet the test, and throw great parties to boot --I would say such a frat would be a good place to spend a lot of college years at.
To make a long story short, one of the guys on my floor was good friends with the fraternity I wanted to get into. Unfortunately, we didn't like each other. I got all the way to the very end (I was in the last round of cuts) before getting dinged. I found out later that this a-hole was involved in me getting dinged. The silver lining was that I wouldn't have fit into that fraternity anyway, so I'm glad I didn't get in (no, really, I am -- no cognitive dissonance here...).
UH is 40% white. That means that 60% of the frats should be composed of other ethnicities. I haven't seen many frats that are 40% white, etc., and you don't seem to deny that here. The white frats are typically all white and the black ones typically all black. I don't know your reading level, but my guess is that you didn't read what I wrote. You quoted me as saying there were frats for other races, but then act like I don't know there are frats for other races. Also, ever been to Frontier Fiesta? Want to venture a guess as to what the ethnic makeup was of the frats that participated? Last year was the first time it had any inclusion of the black frats, and the only reason they were there was that an organizer made it a priority to include them to try to stop all the talk of prevalent racism. There was so much bickering between the different frats that that person quit. My point is that the frats are not really integrated (with a few exceptions, of course). The white frats do their thing, the black frats do their thing, etc. Just like you said, As far as the rest of your statement, This argument makes little sense to me in light of what you just said in the previous quote. Just because I join a segregated country club, I can still join an integrated painting class. Does that mean that being a member of the country club is ok??? I know a lot of frat people that are great, and not at all racist or mean or alcoholics. However, I would apply Desert Scar's criteria to them before considering joining any. Edit: Do you think it is more common for a single frat to reflect the ethnic makeup of the student body or to haze its members in a potentially damaging way?
I'm sure that 40% is larger than any other ethnic group at the school. Predominately white student body popluation (meaning their % is bigger than any other one) = more white frats. The same goes for HBCU's. there are hardly any white students....therefore no white frats. My point was why are you suprised that most of the frats there are white since most of the student body is white. I guess we both can't read. They are not integrated because students choose not to integrate them, not the frats. That's not the frat's fault. Generally (just going by my experiences) if a person from another ethnic group wants in and they do what they need to do, they get in. I have been at three different schools...one HBCU and two Big 12 schools, and my experience has been the same at each one. And once again, just because a frat is not "integrated" does not mean a student can't join other organizations to get some diversity. You must realize the black frats that I mentioned were founded in the early 1900's, when times were VERY different from today. Understand, the frat is not segregated like you make it out to be, because they are not saying no white members, or no black members. These potential members are saying I don't want to be in your frat, I want to go join one with more people that look like me. Big difference.
I guess its not a good thing that it happened at my school. At our school, lots of the fraternities and sororities are pissed at the article's timing. It happened 3 weeks ago, yet they release the article during Welcome Week.
I've had friends in frats and not. Believe me, once college is over, just like your GPA, no one cares. The problem I've always had with them is the same problem I tend to have with most closed social groups - the level of exclusivity. I understand the nature of exclusivity when it comes to ideological, political, religious, ethnic or even skill-oriented organizations. Within those groups, there is an inherent ideology that comes with the territory. You don't join the Green Party unless you agree with the platform. You don't play high school basketball or join the chess club unless you posses the skills. My argument with social organizations is that their level of exclusivity is based on a standard that is superficial and largely irrelevant in all other walks of life. Acceptance is often based on looks, ethnicity, social status, family wealth or standing, etc. This reinforces the notion that you must live up to someone else's view of what is socially acceptable. Much like socialite organizations in high society or wealthy old men's clubs, fraternities' only REAL function in society is to alienate those who aren't able to get in. Maybe what was most galling to me about fraternities and sororities when I was in college was the notion that those who were in them were the best and brightest. The irony, of course, was that Buffy St. Claire and Chad Pennington may have been prom queen and king and members of the student council, but they also had an ecstasy habit, could drink local whinos under the table and slept with more people during homecoming week than they could count on two hands assuming they could actually count. Yet, they were so often held up as models of societal excellence. Meanwhile, the really smart and innovative kids were laboring away in the basement of the science building figuring out how to achieve time travel. To me, the weight given to social skill and beauty goes far enough in normal day-to-day society. It doesn't need to be accentuated through social organizations or exclusive clubs. People are exclusionary enough as it is and we are bombarded enough by messages of how inadequate we are every day. We don't need some group reminding us.
Jeff, and you can say it doesn't matter when you're in school as well. The student body could care less what frat you're in, they lump you all in the same group. I think the only people it matters to are the frats themselves.
Vecsey, Does the ZBT you refer to stand for Zeta Beta Tau ? That is a non-pledging, non-hazing fraternity. I know because I belong to it. I agree that hazing is not a bad thing if used properly. It instills strong brotherhood that is harder to obtain otherwise. However, when it is used maliciously, then it becomes a bad thing.
