Ok guys I've been reading this BBS for only a short period of time, but I must object to a disturbing trend that I've been noticing. It seems that most of the posters are only concerned with players' youth, upside potential and flash. Steve Francis is basically your god, as is any other unproven youngster who can dunk with flair. In my opinion (and the evidence confirms it) championships are won with experience and veteran savvy, mixed in with a couple of high flyers. Let's examine the past few NBA champions: 1) San Antonio Spurs -- Duncan was their "high flyer" (despite his lack of jumping ability), Kersey, Elie, Robinson, Porter and Chuck Person were all indispensible players on this team. All old 2) L.A. Lakers - Kobe and Shaq mixed with several veterans including Harper, Salley, Fox, Shaw, Rice, and Green. 3) Chicago Bulls - No youngsters at all, a team almost comprised entirely of veterans such as Harper, Jordan, Pippen, Longley, Rodman, and Purdue/Wennington. I'm sure many of you would love to see a team made up of Francis, Mobley, Rashard Lewis, Stromile Swift, and Kelvin Cato, but I guarantee you that team would not finish above .500 in the NBA. This obsession with youth is *not* supported by the recent winners in the NBA at all. Basically my point is this: You *need* "boring" players on your team to do the dirty work, to work the refs, to muscle up inside, to pick up offensive fouls, to get inside a youngster's head. I'd much rather have guys like this on my team than this new breed which is more concerned with making ESPN's Sportscenter than with winning the game. ------------------ I am the game -- because I am that damn good.
If those were the only 5 players on the team, wouldn't they get tired? I'd guarantee you, if you put that team on the court in 3 years, they would. Right now, they're too young, and would need time to blend. Swift should be a superstar. So, then you've got 2 superstars, 2 15 ppg guys in Mobley/Lewis, and another shotblocker to go along with Swift. Of other note, I seriously doubt the Rockets plan on contending this year. Were Jordan/Pippen not super athletes, that got up and down the floor? But, you mentioned that Laker team, built around 2 youngsters, with flash in Shaq and Kobe. The veterans were roleplayers, they didn't have any 34 year old superstar, they had a bunch of role players, and Shaq and Kobe. Now this Rockets team is headed in the right direction. We have a bona fide superstar in Francis, and we know we have one super role player in Shandon. Cuttino is a good 3rd offensive option (I feel we need a nice low post presence) but he plays 6th man, is one of the league's best 6th men. Cato could be our longterm center. We need 2 forwards that have the ability to run, and one must be a good low post threat, and both must be at least average defensively. Then we can fill in the veteran blanks. But why worry about getting Horace Grant now, who'll help the team sure, but this team isn't ready to face the big dogs, and will be gone in 2 years. We need our core now to develop, and to figure out what we have, and what we need. Based on our key players, we need people in the KG or Sheed mold, that can score, block some shots, and get out and run the floor. Furthermore, if we have youth now, then they grow and blend, begin to develop great chemistry, a feel for each other's games, and eventually THEY become veterans. Look at Indiana, Miller-Smits were both drafted by the Pacers, and they've been mainstays. They blended in some youth to prepare for the future, and are just in an unfortunate predicament of having 6 free agents. ------------------ The more lefties on your team, the better. Collier is Seven Foot and Left Handed. How can you go wrong? Trade or bench Kenny Thomas. [This message has been edited by NIKEstrad (edited July 14, 2000).]
"But, you mentioned that Laker team, built around 2 youngsters, with flash in Shaq and Kobe. The veterans were roleplayers, they didn't have any 34 year old superstar, they had a bunch of role players, and Shaq and Kobe." NIKE- $haq may be young, but he's got eight years of experience. ------------------ WE WILL WATCH THEM FALL... Next year [This message has been edited by AntiSonic (edited July 14, 2000).]
true, but I was aiming more towards the "showtime" high flying athleticism part. ------------------ The more lefties on your team, the better. Collier is Seven Foot and Left Handed. How can you go wrong? Trade or bench Kenny Thomas.
I really think Rudy, Carroll and the gang recognize that many of the underclassmen and high schoolers coming out do *not* play to the level of their hype, and for this reason they have continually bypassed them in the draft. Mobley, Langhi, Collier, Thomas, and Drew were all players who completed their 4 years at school. What I'm saying is why take a chance on someone like Rashard Lewis or Stromile, both players that are still young and unproven, when you can get someone who is older and has more experience right now for less money? When a player like Lewis or Swift actually matures, they will become too expensive to hang on to! Why should the Rockets essentially pay them to develop only to not be able to afford them? Why not build on the youth that we have by adding some vet's who we can afford? I agree that we are rebuilding, but rebuilding does not involve inserting youth into every position on the court. ------------------ I am the game -- because I am that damn good.
G_Deth: The phrase is called "bird rights." Shaq and Kobe should be in LA until they retire. The expense isn't that important, especially when an exciting team means better marketing. I agree that you need veterans, but you can't build upon veteran roleplayers, as Nikestrad pointed out. You import them piece by piece, when it's time to make your run. As for picking the older, more experienced player in the draft... why? Lewis has already proved to be better than Bryce Drew, in his second year. Drew was drafted instead of Lewis because the Rockets wanted to win RIGHT THEN. They didn't anticipate getting Francis. Perhaps that strategy would have worked IN THE PAST, but now it's not feasible. Nearly ALL the truly talented players come out early. Acquiring second-tier 4 year players simply won't be effective long-term. BTW, Rudy wanted to draft Demarr Johnson or Swift... he simply couldn't maneuver his way up there. I think that as players become progressively more athletic, a rising standard of athleticism is going to be necessary to compete. I think that perhaps Allen Iverson is a perfect demonstration of this... older players may often have better fundamentals, but Iverson manages to SHRED them, and carried his team to the second round of the playoffs.... and he still has room to improve. As for that lineup that you denigrated... what makes you think that wouldn't win? Francis is already capable of taking over games, and Rashard Lewis probably will next year. Swift is likely to immediately be a 15 and 9 guy. Cato... well, I'm not much of a Cato fan. As for those lineups you pointed out... they mostly are in opposition to your thesis. Kobe Bryant was more valuable than Reggie Miller in the finals. Kobe and Shaq won that championship on their own, nearly. Put any 10 decent role players on that team, and they still probably woul have won the title. As for the Spurs... take away any other piece, other than Duncan, and there's still a chance (with the possible exception of Robinson). Take away Duncan, and they're lucky to be .500. Chicago... Pipp was a REAL youngster during the beginning of their championship run. MJ hadn't won before because he didn't have any help (perhaps like Iverson now). Pippen was still quite young when the Bulls won their first title (younger than Shaq, certainly). Look at the Jazz, a team that seems to epitomize the style of GMing that YOU RECOMMEND. How many titles have they won? What about Portland? Oops. Titles seem to be won by acquiring dominating players, and filling in the right pieces. I seriously doubt that age matters very much, after the first couple of years. It's all about the team maturing as a group. ------------------
Great post, but I'd like to comment on a few things. 1) You helped validate the point that I was making when you said that "Titles seem to be won by acquiring dominating players, and filling in the right pieces..." I agree whole-heartedly with that. Some of these proposed teams that I see on this BBS with a line-up of all under 25 year-old players try to fill in a potentially dominant player at every position. This is simply not necessary. As you state, only a couple are necessary to get the job done. 2) When evaluating players, you can't take a young player who hasn't matured yet (Lewis) and compare him to an older player to is closer to his ability-ceiling. You *must* compare the two players in the same period of time in which they could help the Rockets. When looking at Drew versus Lewis, I'd take Drew's contribution over the past two years over that of Lewis any day! Lewis hardly even played his first year and a half in the NBA! It was only in the second half of last season that he did anything at all, and that was on a talent-depleted Sonics team! You seem to be adding in Lewis' *potential* when assessing the two players, when what I look at is what the players is doing me for *today*. Yeah, I'd take Lewis right now, but I think the Rockets were justified in the selection. Had they drafted Lewis, they would have been forced to shell out the big $$ for his anyhow a year from now. 3) Teams that have been very successful (doesn't mean they've won titles, but they have been successful nonetheless) over the past few years have been the Jazz, Spurs, Knicks, Pacers, Bulls, Rockets (before youth), Trail Blazers, and Heat. Where are the 18 year olds on these teams? Oh yeah, Jermaine O'Neal is glued to the bench, as is Al Harrington and Jonathan Bender. DeShawn Stevenson, you're next with Utah. Why draft a guy that's going to sit the bench for a couple of years when you can simply sign him when he is a sure thing 3 years later? Why take the risk when other teams are willing to do so? Why not fill your roster out with guys who are ready now?? 4) I'm not talking about acquiring Antoine Carr and Vinny Del Negro and building upon them when I'm wanting to fill out the roster with veterans. We have a solid core of youth in Francis, Anderson, Mobley, and Cato. This is what we are building on. If we inserted a couple of pieces to inject some leadership in the locker room and some veteran savvy on the court that would be great! 5) Allen Iverson is a joke. He adds nothing to the team but scoring. He detracts from his team in every other aspect. He will never win a title in his life. How can you make him your model player for why a team should get younger? So Les Alexander can spend more money under the cap bailing people out of jail? Please.
The word is potential. High risk, high return. You've got to take gambles sometimes on a youngster. I think the Rockets need one more secondary star (such as Rashard Lewis next offseason), before we can fill out the rest of the roleplayers, unless Cato suddenly transforms into a 16 ppg guy. ------------------ The more lefties on your team, the better. Collier is Seven Foot and Left Handed. How can you go wrong? Trade or bench Kenny Thomas.
Why draft a guy that's going to sit the bench for a couple of years when you can simply sign him when he is a sure thing 3 years later? <hr> Becuz, you might not be able to sign him in 3 years when he is a sure thing. If he's a sure thing, then he'll be commanding lotsa money and you might not have enough for him. And plus, if you draft a guy out of high school, and have a good coaching staff that works and develops the youngster, then the youngster will feel happy and a bond will be formed between his team and himself. Then his chances of leaving are lower. ------------------ treasurer of the moochie norris fan club
Also note, players are now RESTRICTED free agents after their 4th season (assuming team picks up option for it), meaning their team can match any offer, and they're basically locked into their team for 5 years. ------------------ The more lefties on your team, the better. Collier is Seven Foot and Left Handed. How can you go wrong? Trade or bench Kenny Thomas.
I agree with G. We saw this scenario played out somewhat in Toronto this year with them adding veterans such as Oakley and Willis to a squad with some young legs in Carter and McGrady. I think we all have a chance to see how a young athletic team fares this year with (I cant believe I am saying it) the Clippers. It will be intresting to see how that scenario plays out. I cant help but remember living in Denton Tx. when the Mavs had Kidd, Mashburn and J.Jackson. The expectations were so huge for such a young team, that to some extent they seemed to crumble under the pressure. ------------------
G_Deth: About Iverson... Admittedly, I was young when MJ came into the league, but I was at an age where I could understand what was going on... I remember my father (a big Celtics fan) talking about how a selfish, ball-hog named MJ would never win a title. I don't really like Iverson, but I admire his talent, and figure he'll work out. But take Iverson away from that team, and they're a cellar team. I don't call that a joke. I agree that veterans are necessary... but you HAVE to take the players with the most potential. Otherwise, you're going to end up with a team of mediocre roleplayers. An occasionally great 4 year player comes around, but there aren't enough for everyone. About Lewis: Are you sure Drew's been more valuable? I'm not. Last year, they were both fairly worthless. This year, Lewis nearly managed to be the difference to upsetting Utah. I'm not saying he was nearly their best player, but take him away and... that series wouldn't have gone to 5. As pointed out, the key to keeping player are BIRD RIGHTS. Face it, the only teams with cap room SUCK (with the exception of the Raptors). Everyone is going to remain over the cap, it seems. In this sort of situation, it becomes necessary to RETAIN TALENT. I'd rather wait for a player to develop for a couple years, than to play the odds in the FA market... which quite frankly, aren't good. I do think that a developmental league is needed in which contracts are not used up for so many of these young players. I agree that all the "potential" superstar youngsters create a problem, but I think it's a game teams are going to have to play to be successful for now. ------------------
My thoughts on the posting: 1. It is true that mainly vetern teams winn titles get to the finals. Wanna look to the teams that win big? Bulls last 3 rings, Utha in the finals twice, San Antonio. 2. There are exceptions. When the Rocks got to the finals in '86 it was Hakeem and Sampson that got us to the finals-- and kept us from being swept. 3. What I want is a team of player that can grow together: sign everyone for long-term contrats and let them evolve as one. The Championships will come. ------------------
