plus, the only real size difference between the old and new 3 guard lineups is Drexler and Mobley. ------------------
I wouldn't agree that Mobley is an awful defensive player. I think his defense is average and typically, both his and Francis' defense will improve with experience. I do agree that nothing is gained with Cat starting. He is not a typical 6th man, however, because he plays so many minutes. He also gets major minutes in the 4th qtr. The main reason for the Rockets strong finish last year was because Francis and/or Cat were hitting shots at the end of the game that they were missing earlier in the year. That is crucial to success in the NBA. Since both of them take a lot of J's, one can take up the slack for the other if his J isn't falling. Shandon increased his 4th qtr minutes by the end of the season by scoring opportunity points and providing above average D. ------------------
Joe Joe, If I remember, that was based on rebounds per minute. And I'm in Houston at the moment, so I can't verify that. If I remember, I'll look at it again when I get back home tomorrow. Keep in mind I'm looking at SG's that got over 25 mpg, not just starters and all-stars. Also, when I said he was in the "lower half", he was somewhere near the middle of the pack as opposed to the bottom. ------------------ Just shut up and post [This message has been edited by Dr of Dunk (edited July 14, 2000).]
Isn't the 6th man the first man off the bench, and supposed to get "starter's" minutes? Cuttino gets more than average, but he's an upper echelon 6th man, meaning he should get upper echelon minutes for a 6th man. The difference in size between Drexler and Mobley is huge. Drexler is tall for an SG, while Mobley is short for an SG (that was his draft day knock). Cato's defense isn't even in Hakeem's league. "I think, defense aside, that the 3 guard lineup could really come out and get up on teams" B-ball freak-You just said it there yourself. Defense is at least half the game, if not more (defense creates offense). How different would we be from Philadelphia? They start a short backcourt, and have an eraser up front (who's better than Cato) in Ratliff? They have no real bench, but they play good D. If they manage to get fair value for Iverson, like an all star caliber 2, and a big man (I say that, because for some reason, Houston-Camby came to my mind), they'd be a great team, as Snow is a leader and plays good D for his size. But having 2 6 footers in the backcourt, teams like LA drive them nuts. I'm surprised no one brought stats into play. Mobley starting: 8 games, 39 MPG, 37.5% FG%, 31.4% 3P%, 88.9% FT%, 4.9 boards, 3.6 APG, 16.4 PPG Mobley off the bench: 73 games, 29.9 MPG, 43.8% FG%, 36.2% 3P%, 84.4% FT%, 3.4 boards, 2.5 APG, 15.7 PPG The numbers tell all. Mobley's FG%, and 3P% went down. in 9.1 more MPG, Mobley only managed .7 more points. Those could almost be nullified by the FT% difference, which makes no difference whether you're starting or off the bench. The assists are up, which is a good sign if he were to start, but how big of a difference is 1.1 in 9.1 minutes, if any slanted in the starter's favor? Rebounds are up 1.5, but again, that's at least close to making no difference with minutes in consideration. I rest my case, at least until someone challenges it again. ------------------ The more lefties on your team, the better. Collier is Seven Foot and Left Handed. How can you go wrong? Trade or bench Kenny Thomas.
Cuttino Mobley is 6'4, he is a shooting guard but at this point is not ready to start. I personally like Shandon Anderson as the starter more many reasons. He plays great defense, rebounds like a PF, shoots decently(can shoot better)and can do all the little things(ala Mario Elie). Cuttino needs work on his all-round game. Yes, he can score and plays good defense but needs work on certain things. All can and will be learned by Cuttino but the question is where? Houston-he can grow into a true shooting guard. Orlando-could start but with Tracy McGrady going there he won't. Chicago-would start but would he get the green light with Fizer and Elton Brand there, I think not. Vancouver-may start but with Vince Carter there he would just be a stand up shooter. So I think he stays for the fact he can grow into the position with time, as for Shandon also will get playing time at either the 2 or 3. I personally wouldn't make any moves with this team unless something of course is too good. These guys are the core(Francis, Norris, Mobley, Anderson, Williams, Thomas, Cato and Collier). The others like Drew, Langhi, Bullard and Rogers are good role players. I just mean that they shouldn't make drastic changes anywhere. Going right now with Cuttino Mobley hopefully signing would be fine with me. Give this young group time to become something special. I think we have a great group together. ------------------
I don't know who I'm arguing with about what anymore. Old age I guess. I will say again, I don't think Cat is a bad defender and also, I sure don't think Kenny Smith was a good defender. I don't there is a good comparison for Cat's role. He doesn't start, but plays more minutes than a lot of starters. He plays the 4th quarter. Much more important than starting. Games are usually won in the 4th quarter. Occasionally, teams get blown out in the 1st quarter and don't recover, but games between two good teams are usually decided in the 4th quarter. I don't think who starts will be nearly as big an issue as minutes played in the next few years. Between the 2 and 3 spots, there are enough minutes for 3 players to get 30 minutes per game with a few left over. Only two of those can play at the same time. I think the problem will be who gets the minutes in the 4th quarter. Here are some questions. If we get someone like Croshere or Lewis, do they play the 4th. If so, who sits, Cat or Shandon? If Walt is not traded and continues to score consistently, what happens to him? If Collier or Langhi shoot well and are effective spacing the floor and working the pick n roll, what does that do to the above mentioned players? If Hakeem plays reasonably well and Cato improves his defense and rebounding, do you want them on the floor at the same time in the 4th? Have a nice weekend everybody. ------------------
NIKEstrad, if your case is that Mobley is ideal coming off the bench, I agree. If you case is Mobley isn't very important because he isn't a starter, I don't agree. Starter or no starter, Mobley is our 2nd best scorer and third best player. Being indifferent about whether you want to keep third best player around, and a players whose ranked 10th of all SG's in the west (ESPN composite stat, he was right behind Shandon at #9) is not the approach we should take. As for Cuttino not starting, it is not a matter of whether his ideal role is a starter, but do we have anyone better to start?? Walt only rebounds .4 more per game than Cuttino, and moving down SA to the 3 would probably negate this difference as Shandon is a better rebounder than Walt and would be in better position (do you have access to Shandon’s rebounding #’s as a 2 versus 3??). Are we better with Francis, SA and Walt, or Francis, Cuttino and SA? If it came down to starting Mobley or losing him, we should start him until we had a small forward who has a more complete game than Walt Williams. I am not saying even if Cato is bitten by a rabid bulldog he will be able to shut down a defense like Hakeem, but if Cato progresses like we “hope” and we are able to couple him with a guy with the blocking and boarding presence of Webber, you might be able to get a way with a 3 guard line-up. The Knicks have had a ferocious D with a 3 guard line up, and Phily has been good as well despite being small. But you must have a solid interior to get away with it. I agree we don’t have the pieces to put it together now, but starting Walt over Cuttino isn’t going to help that, we have to think down the line for what we want our team to be. Losing Cuttino, especially without a fight, would be completely terrible for the team. ------------------ "The Rockets were ahead of the Suns by 20 late in game 2 of the series, but when the going got tough, we just Pippened . We would not be done in the series though." [This message has been edited by sir scarvajal (edited July 14, 2000).]
sir scarv-Yes, I'm saying Mobley can't be a starter, because of his ability to score better off the bench, and lack of defense, causing our perimeter defense to just totally implode...I will still maintain Cat's defense is awful. If Charles Barkley (wasn't he voted worst defensive player of all time by SI?), can rag on your D, it's bad. Kenny's D was less than stellar, but he funnelled to Hakeem. Cato is a good shot blocker, but not Hakeem like. Mobley is integral, but I personally don't think he should, or needs to start, and if we lose him, I don't think it will set us back too far. It'd set us back more if we lost Shandon for nothing. Difference between us and the Knicks, is that Sprewell and Houston are both superstars, Sprewell is an incredible defender, and Houston isn't too shabby. I wouldn't be as worried about it, if Cuttino was 3 inches taller, and not so short. Sprewell and Houston are both 6'6''-6'7''. Then their PG, Ward or Childs, both play decent D. Our only halfway decent guard defender is Shandon, that's it, and it's sad. ------------------ The more lefties on your team, the better. Collier is Seven Foot and Left Handed. How can you go wrong? Trade or bench Kenny Thomas. [This message has been edited by NIKEstrad (edited July 14, 2000).]
I am in agreement with Nike on this. Cuttino Mobley is nice to have as a 6th man spark off the bench. However, I do not think the Rockets should bend over backwards trying to please him by offering a starting spot. They have already done enough to show they want Mobes to stay; if he leaves he leaves. Bad shot selection, being undersized and questionable defense are not what you want out of your starting shooting guard. If Cuttino walks, I feel pretty confident that the Rockets can find another instant offense type scorer off the bench. As far as what I would want the SL to look like.... Imagine something like this, Francis, Anderson, Lewis, Croshere, Cato. I think thats a moderately possible lineup. If you want to really go into serious dreamcasting, how about Francis, Anderson, Croshere, Webber, Cato. I was going through the cap calculations today, and to my delight/surprise, both those lineups are workable under the cap along with a Mobley re-signing. This is all predicated on dumping Walt Williams, though, for players in their last yr's of their contracts. ------------------ Check out the Best Source for Draft Info Draftsource.net
One more wonderful stat for everyone: The Rockets record in the 8 games Cuttino started was 1-7. Ouch. We played Miami, Clippers (won by 22), New York twice, Orlando, Seattle twice, and Toronto. All playoff teams except for the Clippers and the Magic? sure. When Mobley came off the bench, the Rockets beat the Heat by 13. When he started, we lost by 12. The Rockets were 4-0 against the Clippers, all double digit wins. The Rockets were 0-2 against NY, Mobley started both games. Mobley averaged 11 ppg against the Knicks. The Rockets went 0-2 against Orlando. They lost by 5 when Mobley came off the bench (and scored 25), and they lost by 16 when Mobley started (and shot 7-22, scoring 19 points). The Rockets lost twice to Seattle when Mobley started.(once by 9, when all 3 guards and Bullard scored 15+, Mobley with 35, and the other time by 7, Mobley shot 2-15). The other 2 games they split, winning one by 3, and losing the other by 3. The Rockets went 0-2 to Toronto, losing by 2 when Mobley was off the bench (Carter poured in 37 at Toronto), the other time by 1 in Houston, Carter went for 35, and Alvin Williams scored 17 for Toronto. Mobley shot 9-24. This all points to: Mobley is better off the bench. ------------------ The more lefties on your team, the better. Collier is Seven Foot and Left Handed. How can you go wrong? Trade or bench Kenny Thomas. [This message has been edited by NIKEstrad (edited July 15, 2000).]
I seriously doubt that Rudy T's long term game plan is to run a lineup with Francis-Mobley-Anderson out there consistently for big minutes. That small three guard lineup can be effective for stretches during the regular season as it can win with an up tempo style, but when the playoffs roll around and it becomes a grind it out matchup oriented halfcourt game, small lineups get crushed. A good example was the Suns of a couple of seasons ago. They went with a very small three guard lineup of KJ-Kidd-Chapman which was extremely effective in the regular season as they salvaged an 0-13 start, but they were squashed in the first round of the playoffs. The small lineup can have its place in stretches, but it should not be some type of permanent fixture. I would much rather the Rockets run out a pair of tall forwards with Anderson and Francis in the backcourt than go with a three guard lineup of Francis-Mobley-Anderson. Something I was dreamcasting about.... What do you think of this lineup, Francis, Anderson, Lewis, Croshere, Cato. If Mobley would come off the bench for a potential team like that, Im all for it, but if he wants to start forget him. ------------------ Check out the Best Source for Draft Info Draftsource.net
NikeStard, Better off the bench? With those awful shooting numbers it would be better if he was off someone else's bench. I would trade him for Lewis or Croshere, I think Mobley is over rated, and has peaked. DaDakota ------------------ [This message has been edited by DaDakota (edited July 15, 2000).]
A small lineup will never, never win in this league just look at this - 1-Smith 2-Drexler 3-Elie 4-Horry 5-Olajuwon ----- this lineup seemed to always get crushed! ------------------
With the exception of Elie at the 3 that was a big linuep. Plus Elie always played big with his strength he could dominate bigger players. ------------------ "We need to fockass".....Dream back in the day
I, for one, do not think that Cuttino is overrated and that is only because people view him in regards to his talent, rather than what his stats have exhibited in his first two seasons in a Rockets uni. It's a given that his shot selections suck, he whines too much, and his field goal percentage is lower than JFK's blood pressure. But, Magic Johnson wasn't a great shooter in his first few years of being in the league (and no im not so asynine as to compare these two players) but, as he became accustomed to his changing role, he did become more adept at making the outside shot with consistency. Cuttino should be able to also in the future. I'm not concerned with the fact that he does in fact deserve a more lucrative deal than what the Rockets can offer this year, however, when it comes time to give him the real money and contract come 2001, i sure hope the Rockets organization take a deep look at themselves and question whether or not he's worth a penny more than 5 million annually. I'd much rather have a more competent frontcourt than a loaded backcourt with playing and starting time coming into question each beginning of a new year. I say take the risk of committing to a talented player for a few years, but make it a reasonable risk. Anything over 5 million and he becomes a cap liability, i just dont think he's worth anything more. ------------------
