I don't think anyone is trying to slam rhester: he has been quite respectful and patient in explaining his viewpoint, and I think we all appreciate it. It really is quite nice when the D&D can have an acutal polite debate and discussion ...and some might say that, the simple fact that no one can give an answer that satisfies seems to indicate that there is no answer. Or that the answer is there can be no intrinsic value to prayer. That any value is extrinsic or preceived, and the actual act serves no purpose.
i wasn't implying that anyone was disrespecting rhester! Hope it didn't sound that way. More of a complement to him for attempting to explain -- in a way that made relative sense to this non religious person. I knew my 'find it yourself' response might sound dismissive. But some things just can't be explained with certainty using logic as your only base. Love, for instance. You can reduce it to definable parameters -- but then you're missing the most important part. Possibly prayer and faith are like that.
Okee dokey. My mistake. No harm, no foul. Oh, I don't think it was dismissive at all. I just think there might be another option that might occur to some folks.
There are 4 significant ideas being discussed by droxford's original post- What is God's will? Is sickness and death God's will? How does prayer affect that? Does God cause His will to be done? I would summarize my opinions this way- God's will for us is to make wise and loving choices, the world is full of misery, tragedy and suffering, God does not leave us to face these things alone but offers His help, if you believe that statement then talking to God and asking for His help is reasonable, God does not cause His will to be done in the majority of cases unless He has made a choice to cause something for His higher purposes for example He determined Jesus would die on the cross; since God does not cause His will to be done taking away man's choices He enters into situations as He is invited (for the most part) and He does it conditionally. Again I have over simplified some complex ideas given in the Bible. Droxford, I think these are good questions. It is not easy to see how suffering, cancer, disaster, injustice are consistent with a loving and merciful God. I would emphasize from a perspective of the Bible God certainly views time in relation to eternity- thus God will often make wrongs right in a future eternity and so He is not compelled to fix everything immediately or in this life. There will be no cancer in heaven. Often the bible gives several explanations on difficult subjects and they must be connected to be able to have a good understanding for example- some verse say we cannot resist God's will, and when God intervene's or chooses a certain way that is true. some verses say we must do God's will, and we understand that is something God is not going to do, we must do it. some verses say that His will is unchangeable, and that speaks to God always being honest, just, and righteous some verses indicate that we must seek His will and certainly this is a large task some verses require us to know God's will and that there are results or consequences to every human choice made some verses tell us we fall short of knowing His will and often the greatest faith is believing in God's loving character when we do not understand anything about difficult circumstances I could go on and on... just more of my own thoughts.
I think there is God's overall will and then there is the day-to-day. God's overall will will be done. His day-to-day will is something for us to follow and do. And since that has human intervention, it can and does get messed up. Kind of like a tapestry. It can be a beautiful thing looking at from the front, seeing picture, colors and all the details. Turn the tapestry over and it looks pretty ugly. You can barely make out what is going on with all the loose ends, knots and a general blah to it all. I pray for my son - daily. He has taken the path that I did not want him to take but he has chosen to take. I pray that he may come back to Him. I pray that I may show him love even though he has chosen this path. But most of all I pray that God will be glorified through my son. I'd love for that to be the easy way - just wake up one day and say enough - I turn my life over to you Lord. But that may also mean that he goes to prison - not something most people would see as a glorifying event. But if somehow, someway God is glorified, all else doesn't matter - no matter what the world sees. They can only see the back side.
Thanks rhester. I just want God glorified through this. I'd rather it be the easy way but that isn't up to me.
You seem stuck on one particular aspect of the theological issue of predestination. Predestination is interpreted in many ways depending upon the religion and sect, rhester's responses touch on this simply from his own particular perspective. A Catholic, might give you a slightly different perspective. Some religions reject it or do not have it as part of their cosmology. I'm not a theologian, so I would suggest research into predestination and then a reassessment of whatever answer you are seeking.
To take this head on. It sounds like you are trying to hand cuff God by saying that since he sets everything in motion that he cannot make changes. The nature of an omnipotent being would be that it could change anything whenever it felt it wanted to even if it set the rules to begin with. In that sense prayer would be petitioning God to change the rules.
More accurately..... So, the prayer of one man or a group of men has the ability to change the mind of an omnipotent being, resulting in Him changing the course of events that he had already intentionally set forth?
Honestly, I used to care a ton about these theological discussions. I spent (wasted) hours thinking about and discussing predestination vs. free will. The truth is, I can find chapters and verses to support both....sometimes the same chapter supports both. I've been on both sides of the discussion. Now I'm older, and I just don't care. I don't think it's remotely important to how I live my life in light of Jesus Christ. I can't believe I thought I was smart enough to box God into theological boxes with clever language. THAT is the failure of religion. I pray because I find comfort in it. I pray because I believe Someone is listening. I pray primarily out of gratitude...sometimes out of desperation..sometimes I pray because I pray. I pray because it's peaceful. I pray because it's my time connected with the One who I believe is bigger than all my problems or concerns. I pray because someone asks me to. I pray with others when it provides them comfort...or when I believe there is power in sharing prayer with another person or persons. I'm sure there are other reasons I pray. I have found, more often than not, that a prayer for a change in circumstance often leads in a change in my heart...or a change in my desire. That I am the one being changed...not the circumstances around me. I think this is probably more the value of prayer than anything.
If he is an omnipotent being he can do whatever he wants and part of that might be acting on someone's prayer. You are arguing that God can't change his mind. If God is omnipotent he can do anything including changing his mind so it makes sense to entreaty him for help. Anyway I will still stick with the reasons I cited in my first post in this thread but accepting the logic that God is all powerful I don't think you then say he is locked into to any particular direction. He is beyond the power of fate.
Also doesn't being omnipotent include knowing what is going to happen ? If someone knows they will change their mind i would argue that they are not really changing their mind. Right?
Exactly what I think droxford is getting at. If He is all-knowing/all-seeing, then by definition, He knows who will live and who will die from cancer. There's no wiggle-room. Furthermore, it could be argued that He has ordained that people die from cancer. If the universe and everything within it is the domain of God, that must include death by cancer. I've yet to see how we can take this off His table.
Except we do not know who will live or die and if God is all powerful we can try to ask him to change his plan. Sure its on his table but it is within his power to take it off.
God changed his plans in the bible based upon the outcome of people's choices. This indicates to me that God knows all that can be known, but leaves us with choices that He must deal with. For instance God knows that there will be tragedies because people drive drunk, but He does not will it or control the choices. God is consistently just, what he does justly for one He would do for all. It is a mistake to assume that God ordains events in the norm. It's not that He can't it is unwise and unloving so He won't. When God decides to end the suffering of mankind is will be due to man's failure to do enough- just a thought.
I agree, this is what prayer can be, I don't think this is what it should be. In my opinion, Prayer acknowledges a human situation for what it is and you have basically done all that is humanly possible to affect the situation in a positive way. In essence, you are surrendering what you can not control to the mercy of god.
Except we are not omniscient so we don't know what is God's will. Its like when a kid ask for ice cream and the parent says, "no". The kid then says what if I am good and clean up my room. The parent might say "OK, if you clean up your room you can get ice cream." The parent might all along have intended to give the kid ice cream but the kids doesn't know that and if the parent were to say from the beginning they would get the child ice cream the child might not have changed his behavior. I think this is what rhester is getting at regarding free will. While there might be an omnipotent omniscient being who knows what will happen we have to act from our own knowledge base were we don't know what might happen.
But the point is that God doesn't change His mind and we both know that. His plans are not conditional on your prayer. In fact your prayer is conditional on his plan. He knows if you will or won't pray, everything is accounted for. Personally I think if God changed His mind for His creation it defeats the definition of God. Ofcourse I'm just postulating, I still pray for people as long as there is a 1% chance it could help.
