What is a Christian?

Well put. Bravo!

 

We do agree that only God can decide who is truly saved (and who can be truly called a Christian). It is not me who is deciding if others will be Christian or not. Everyone has that opportunity. But Christians should not disagree on the validity of the Bible and the message God reveals through His Word. The Bible is clear on what is needed for our salvation (The admission of our sin as defined by God, the belief of who Jesus was, is , and is to come, and the confession that Jesus Christ is Lord) This is not debatable.

There is no such thing as a humanist Christian. It's an oxymoron. For one to be saved, one must renounce their humanistic views. The Bible tells me so.

 

mr_gootan answered it well. I think John answers the question of who Jesus is - which is the basis for Christians. The other gospels answer the question of what Jesus did - also important but I think it is more important to understand who Jesus is 1st.

Romans explains how the law and Jesus relate to salvation. Without the law you can't know for sure that there is a problem between you and God. But no one can keep the law so God sent His only Son to pay the sins of everyone who will trust Him. Think of the law as a test for cancer. The test will tell you you have a problem (sin) but it will not fix the problem (sin). No matter how many times you take the test (how hard you try to keep the law and "be a good person") you still have the cancer. The cure is free - just believe that Jesus is the Messiah and paid it all.

Galations explains that after accepting Jesus you don't have to keep taking the test. ie. It's not Jesus and the law - it's Jesus and Him alone.

 

This isn't even funny. It makes me cringe to tell you. In The Montrose, near Kipling and S. Shephard there is one their Kingdom thingies where they meet and have a big map on the wall of houses and a bunch of multi-colored pins designating which houses are good for doing their Witnessing and stuff. You know, don't they have to Witness a born-again rapture dance to be saved, right?

They also litter the neighbor...really, litter it...with little comic book pamplets. They stick them in the benches at Lanier Middle School so the teachers can't see them, but the kids sitting down will say, hey look, a little comic book.

Anyhow, I have lived in Montrose for many years, and once about 3 blocks from this place. Our downstairs neighbor was polite and talked to them once. Boy, did our apt get placed on the Big Board.

2 or 3 Saturdays per month. I am not joking. I swear they were using us as a training stop for newbies or sumpin. My wife really started getting rude, because our neighbor eventually stopped answering the door, so they'd knock on ours at 9am...first stop of the day.

She once tried to dump water on them.

Don't wake up heyschweetie early on Saturday. Her dog learned that long ago, and has pleasantly conceding to snuggling until 10:30-11 with here waiting patiently for her morning walk. Those two girls could sleep in all day with no complaints.

 

Actually it is debatable. That's why there's literally thousands of Christian denominations. They all see some differences in the messages from the bible. If they all agreed there would only be one demonination.

I don't disagree that the bible is valid. I think two people can see the bible in different ways and it's still valid for both of them. And that line of thinking is actually biblical.

There's a whole chapter in Romans that talks about what might be sin for some is different than what is sin for others. It goes on to say that each person should firmly believe what they believe, and that no one else should put a stumbling block in their way toward that belief.

 

Denominations do not differ about the way to salvation. They differ on other aspects of kingdom work. Maybe you can provide an example.

Any two people can interpret any book from their own perspective and arrive at different conclusions. When taken from God's perspective, there's only one interpretation. And one can see this by the continuity of the message and lessons throughout the Old and New Testaments. There are no contradictions. (I know, still debatable by this BBS. I would bring up the old thread if search was enabled.)

The message from that chapter of Romans talks about consequences of actions, not the actions themselves. Obviously there a wide range of spiritual maturity levels within a church family. If a more mature Christian performs an action that he/she knows is not a sin (eating sacrificed meat in the example) yet causes a weaker Christian to be complacent in his/her faith (not about eating that same meat, but commit an actual sin) then the more mature Christian should avoid doing it for the sake of the weaker one. Even if he/she decides to "lay a stumbling block", it's not a sin (since Christians are allowed to eat anything. Yet, it's not helping the church any.)

Problems always arise when people use life experience to interpret the Bible when it should be the other way around. The Bible should always interpret your life experience. So, if two people do have differing yet "valid" interpretations, they both better be glorifying God otherwise one of them is mistaken. And again, they don't differ about the way to salvation)

 

Well some Christians believe that you must be baptized to be saved, others don't feel that it's needed.

Others believe that because Jesus died for everyone and all will be saved.

There are still others that believe in pre-determination. I.E. It's already pre-determined by God which people will be saved and which won't be. It doesn't really matter what the people do on earth it's just been determined for them.

Each of these different groups will present bible stories, and scriptures to say why their paticular belief is the right one and the other guys are wrong.

John says that God is love, so when people present these different types of beliefs, I'll always go with the most loving interpretation.

 

I really need to know which specific denominations have these beliefs because individual people can say anything they want while church organizations usually have their beliefs documented.

Do you see a potential pitfall in this process? You have made yourself the authority on what is the most representative of love (which could easily change with a simple chocolate bar). Christians usually consider the Bible as the best authority in these matters because of it's presentation of love through holiness. Love without holiness becomes a perversion of love, and thus a perversion of the truth. (Yes I know, also debatable.)

 

The Penecostals are one such group. 'Oneness Pentecostal theology states that baptism is necessary for salvation. It asserts that without it, a person cannot be saved.'

Here's a website that discusses it.http://www.carm.org/oneness/onenessbaptism.htm

I really don't claim to know the one answer. I merely said when two people's representation seem equally valid, etc. the criteria tha I use. I don't mean to be an authority at all. I could be wrong just like anyone else could. I just try to have faith, and make decisions like anyone else.

I'm not sure how what is love could change with a simple chocolate bar. For instance if one person presents me with biblical text about killing babies etc. and were to decide that is what Christianity should be, and another person were to present me with the Sermon on the mount, I would lean towards believing the sermon on the mount to be the more holy, and loving way.

I know that's an extreme, but I hope it gets the idea across that I'm trying to make.

 

From that website, the Oneness Pentecostal church is considered a cult/religious movement and not representative of the Pentecostal denomination.

United Pentecostal Church

From the main Pentecostal church website, they state "It is true that water itself does not contain any saving virtue, but God has chosen to include it in His plan of salvation."
They understand that it's not required for salvation (think of the case of one who is saved before he dies, like the thief next to Jesus at the crucifixion) but that being baptised is a tangible result of real salvation.

But how would you know to lean that way unless it was made clear in other parts of the Bible?

 

"It is true that water itself does not contain any saving virtue, but God has chosen to include it in His plan of salvation."

If it's part of his plan for salvation that means that some believe it's needed for salvation. I'm not saying I agree with it, just that some Christians do believe that.

Also reformed Presbyterians believe in pre-destination. That means that whether or not one is saved was determined long before they were born.
http://www.pcusa.org/pcusa/today/believe/speak.htm
Here's the quote. "Election
No, this doesn't refer to how commissioners are selected to go to the General Assembly. It is a theological term that means God makes the first move in acting to redeem sinners. People within the covenant of faith are called "the elect." Reformed (or Presbyterian) theology teaches that we are incapable of saving ourselves from our sins, and that God "elects" or "chooses" to save us.

Predestination
This word, similar to election, often raises questions for people of other denominations. Basically predestination means that our election by God occurred not only before we were born, but so far back in time that it happened "before the creation of the world" (see Ephesians 1:4).

 

Wow! That’s an incredible compliment. I'm not sure I deserve it, but thanks!

Ultimately Christianity is a very personal journey between you and God, and anything any of the rest of us say is just reference material. All Christians have their strengths and weaknesses, their “gifts” and shortcomings, so the listener has to discern what is “of God” and what is the product of our own shortcomings. It really is useful to listen to other people’s stories and opinions, IMO, as you will find that things they say trigger understandings and realisations in you.

Ultimately being a Christian is about having a personal relationship with God. That means meeting your maker, God, in the depths of your soul. In my experience this requires complete humility (as complete as you can possibly manage at the time) and submission, and asking God to reveal himself to you. The exact way this happens seems to vary quite significantly from person to person. Christ makes this possible because, as others have stated, he bridges the gap. It is through Christ’s sacrifice that we can be saved by grace through faith, not by works. You can’t do good deeds and earn enough credits to get your ticket to heaven. It’s about relationship with God, a pretty awesome prospect to say the least.

The degree to which one needs to know about Jesus is an interesting question. A lot of people, including me, became Christians without knowing very much about Jesus. It was only afterwards that I began to understand what the whole sacrifice thing was really all about. Christianity isn’t just for the educated and the indoctrinated. It is for all who seek God. “Seek and you will find.” “Knock and the door will open.”

You can even have an interesting discussion around whether one needs to even know the name of Jesus to meet God. Romans 4 talks about how Abraham was justified by faith, before Christ even walked the earth. (Note to other Christians: This does not suggest, IMO, that this justification was made possible by anything other than Christ’s subsequent sacrifice). Some will point out that this was an Old Testament happening, but why then is it so prominently referenced in the NT? I’m not sure of the answer myself. The bible is not always easy to interpret.

I do believe that the bible is the inspired word of God. If God wanted to give us a guidebook, I don’t think he would give us one with mistakes. But the Bible is clearly written in a way that needs to be interpreted by the reader. I think this is a good thing for a number of reasons. One is that it makes the reader responsible for their own faith walk. No one can tell you exactly what it means. You have to read it for yourself. People can, and should, tell you what it means to them, and there is a lot to be learned by this. This is what good Christian community is all about, learning from each other’s strengths and insights, and supporting each other through struggles.

It is important to remember, however, that the Bible is often misinterpreted and sometimes dramatically misinterpreted. The Bible itself refers to this in a prominent way (Matthew 7 & 23, and other places), so it is especially important that you take responsibility for your own faith walk, and that you find a community that allows you to do this, and encourages you in this journey.

So who is a Christian? Given that all of us fall well short in conducting ourselves the way we should, it can be hard to tell sometimes. The passages that have always meant the most to me on this point are Matthew 7: 15-18, and Galatians 5: 22-23.

“22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.”

Of course we aren’t perfect in living by these. We invariably fall well short, in fact. But if these or most of these are a person’s primary drivers, then they are probably a pretty good person to talk to about their faith.

These are my beliefs on the subject anyway.

(You can find the passages here if you are so inclined. http://bible.gospelcom.net/ )

 

One question: Do you have to be white to be Christian?

 

No, Jesus paid it all for everyone who believes.

 

Jesus said, "they'll know you by your love for one another"...meaning others will be able to pick out Jesus' true disciples by their love for one another...as Grizzled said, it is often hard to tell, because we all fall short of God's glory.

as for the reformed faith, predestination stuff...I tend to lean that way a bit...not something i could discuss easily or well on these boards because I would never do the concept justice...just understand that God works in his eternal time and we work in our temporal time...it's not the evil god planning out your eternal damnation right now kind of thing it sounds like. but even Paul said God makes the first move...he says something like, "i would never have chosen God...it's not in my human nature to choose anything but self...God put something in me that made me want to respond to him." In my view that makes a heck of a lot of sense.

gr8-1 -- please tell me you're joking!

 

A new day has dawned, PTL.

FranchiseBlade, I had to reread what our discussion was about because I really couldn't remember the point(s) each of us were trying to make.
It's obvious that each of us will interpret the same views of these denominations differently. I know people of these denominations who will justify their view in a way that is consistent with my view, (that all denominations of Christianity agree on salvation through Jesus Christ ,by faith through grace) while I'm sure you could find some people who would disagree with me.

So let's just call an impasse since neither of us will convince the other. Even if you deem that I embrace the "least loving" explanations, I still don't think I'll have any other responses.

(BTW, I think everyone is considered 'elect', 'chosen', and 'predestined' based on 'Whosoever' in John 3:16, but it's still our choice to accept.)

 

there is a tension between a sovereign God and free will that I don't pretend to understand...I think it's beyond me to understand it.

 

That's fine, I wasn't trying to say that your way was less loving. Sorry if it came off like that. I was just saying that's what I try and look at when I decide between multiple people offering different reasons for their particular beliefs within the faith. We also both agreed that only God will decide in the end.

I also wasn't saying I follow any of the denominations that I listed. I will accept that we are at an impasse, and thanks for the conversation. It was cool.

I was just trying to say

 

Absolutely not! It is for "Jews and Gentiles alike." The first Christians were Jews and other Middle Easterners. Us white Europeans are the Johnny-come-latelys, but we’re welcome too, as are all human beings.