No, it seems you're just anti-Israel. When was the last time that you started a thread to speak-out against suicide-bombing of civilians? One can oppose the status-quo in Israel without being as biased as you are, glnch. The warring parties got where they are today from heinous crimes on both sides. If you want to claim that Israel should be held to a higher standard because they are a 'formal' government, then you'd be arguing against Palestinian nationhood because only fools would believe that their leadership has not instigated attacks on civilians. It's time for the Palestinians to stop attacking civilians. It's time for Israel to be prepared to make concessions to live in peace, to do what's right. JMHO.
Oh sure we could do that...but then we'd be going against the UN that the liberals have been screaming about re: Iraq. Israel was created by the UN in 1948. Since then the policy of the UN has been to support Israel to see it through until a time comes when Israel can wholly support itself.
The problem is that EVERY time the Israelis have retreated to pre-1967 borders, they've STILL gotten bombed. The PA (a euphamism for the PLO) wants Israel out of the holy land. Then again, the Israelis want the Palestinians out of the holy land...do you sense a trend. Bottom line: This isn't going to stop anytime soon. Anybody who thinks the US can fix it are either kidding themselves or are not very bright. Sure the US cutting off support would cripple Israel economically. All that would happen is that the Palestinians would then capitalize on that weakness and obliterate the state of Israel. Anybody who wants that IS anti-Semitic to some degree.
Just to add a couple cents, It is in fact true that Israel's economy is currently in a complete shambles. The main reason most cite though is that consumer spending is very much shrinking as Israeli citizens are fearful from going out to shop/eat due to threat of suicide attacks. It is also true that Israel is very dependent on US aid. In fact, for fifty years Israel has been one of the top if not the top recipient country of US foreign aid just about every year. And during the past 2 decades it was not uncommon for Israel to receive 1/3-1/2 of the TOTAL US foreign aid doled out each year. It is sad that Rabin was taken from his country. Even sadder that he was killed by a fellow Jew.
Outstanding post!!! You added points about the reason Israel's economy is horrible that I didn't even consider. Simply excellent!!!
And even sadder that the murderer's desire was probably realized when the Israeli's elected Sharon. I was so excited about Rabin. What a human he was.
I see no reason why the US cannot simply stop all supply of weapons. The only reason US is even interested in Israel is because the US needs a foothold in the middle east so they can keep an eye on OPEC. This whole conflict comes down to one issue: OIL
This is so simplistic that it's almost funny. Sure oil is important (I never can see why oil isn't viewed as a legitimate concern by those until they get in their car that is). Do you have any idea how many US citizens of the Jewish faith spend time in Israel every year? Some of my wife's relatives are there living on a kabutz right now. To sum it up: Even were there no oil in the region it would still be important to the US because we have so many of our citizens over there. Believe it or not, but US citizens are a good example of US interests abroad.
Wrong, wrong, and wrong. The U.S. won't stop all supply of weapons because: 1. The surrounding nations WOULD attack Israel. 2. The money we loan Israel to purchase those weapons comes right back to us and keeps many of our AMERICAN businesses going(eg. Lockheed Martin). The U.S. has an interest in Israel because its one of the few democracies in the entire region. Also, there is a strong Jewish lobby here who want to ensure that Israel is safe. This whole conflict comes down to many issues: 1. Finding a place for displaced, poor refugees. 2. Stopping the blatant and brutal attacks on Israeli civilians. 3. Calming religious radicals. There is not one drop of OIL in Israel. If the U.S. really wanted to please OPEC, they would stop helping Israel. The U.S. helps Israel because it believes that it is the right thing to do. While the rest of the world remains very anti-jewish & anti-zionist, the U.S. will not follow suit.
Tikkun Magazine a liberal journal of Jewish thought has some interesting things to say: They have a whole series of articles about this. Why do American Jews find it so difficult to be critical of Israel's policies? In this issue we look at the ongoing fear and tribalism within the Jewish comunity AN EXERPT FROM ONE ARTICLE Seven Pillars of Jewish Denial -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Kim Chernin I am thinking about American Jews, wondering why so many of us have trouble being critical of Israel. I faced this difficulty myself when I first went to Israel in 1971. I was an ardent Zionist, intending to spend my life on a kibbutz in the Galilee and to become an Israeli citizen. Back home, before leaving, I argued almost daily with my mother, an extreme left wing radical, about the Jews' right to a homeland in our historical and therefore inalienable setting. However, once established on my kibbutz on the Lebanese border, I began to notice things that disrupted my complacency. We used to ride down to our orchards on kibbutz trucks with Arab workers from the neighboring villages and were occasionally invited to visit. We liked sitting on a rug on a dirt floor, eating food cooked over an open fire, drinking water from the village well. Above all, we loved the kerosene lamps that were lit and set in a half circle around us as it grew dark. But walking home it occurred to me that our kibbutz had running water, electricity, modern stoves. Our neighbors were gracious, generous, and friendly, although I had learned by then that the land the kibbutz occupied had once belonged to them. We were living on land that was once theirs, under material conditions they could not hope to equal. I found this troubling. The path from this troubled awareness to my later ability to be critical of Israel has been long and complex. Over the years I have spoken with other Jews who have traveled this same path, and to many more who haven't. In each of us I have detected mental obstacles that make it hard, sometimes impossible, for us to see what is there before our eyes. Our inability to engage in critical thought about our troubled homeland is entangled by crucial questions about Jewish identity. Why do American Jews find it difficult to be critical of Israel? Here, set out in linear form, are seven obstacles to a Jew's ability to be critical of Israel. Seven Obstacles: 1. A conviction that Jews are always in danger, always have been, and therefore are in danger now. Which leads to: 2. The insistence that a criticism is an attack and will lead to our destruction. Which is rooted in: 3. The supposition that any negativity towards Jews (or Israel) is a sign of anti-Semitism and will (again, inevitably) lead to our destruction. Which is enhanced by: 4. Survivor's guilt. Which contains within itself: 5. A hidden belief that we can change the past. Which holds: 6. An even more hidden belief that a sufficient amount of suffering confers the right to violence. Which finally brings us to: 7. The conviction that our beliefs, our ideology (or theology), matter more than the lives of other human beings. Tikkun
Such drivel glynch. Honestly. 2 bombings in the last 2 days aimed at Israeli citizens. I don't know why they'd feel they were in danger. DUH! No...just criticism that is unwarranted. Whether you like it or not, anti-Semitism has existed for a long time. It isn't going to change right now. I'm not even Jewish (I'm Catholic) and I can see that. They are RESPONDING to violence...not instigating it. I don't agree with all of their methods, but you can't assume that they are the instigators here. They're not. What group of people hasn't had that said about them? Anytime there has been war there is the supposition by each group that their beliefs are more important than the lives on the other side. Overall a very simplistic piece. The author exhibits a common occurrence amongst those whose people have had to go to war: self-loathing.
This is why I see no incentive for Israel to leave that land. Terrorism won't stop and Israel's neighbors have clearly shown over the last 50 years that they're intent on destroying Israel. It's kind of comical to see the entire ME rail against Israel for how they treat 3 million Palestinians when ME countries treat their own 200 million citizens like ****. Do as we say not as we do? Yeah right.
I agree with you. The problem is that we have people applying Western logic to a region where such logic does not exist. That is ALWAYS a losing strategy.
The problem is that EVERY time the Israelis have retreated to pre-1967 borders, they've STILL gotten bombed. The PA (a euphamism for the PLO) wants Israel out of the holy land. The logic and the facts escape me on this one. I assume we must be talking about the ancient history 1966 and before. They have never retreated to those borders since 1967. So there were lots of sucide bombers and constant killing on both sides before 1967? My recollection as a teenager was that we were not talking about bombing and killings virually every week on the scale we see now within Israel's borders . There were threats and border skirmishes at times between armed combattants. Things have gotten worse since the Israelis occupied the lands conqured in 1967.
Quartet Unveils Plan For Occupied Territories By Haider Rizvi IPS Article Dated 9/18/2002 E-Mail This Article Printer-Friendly Version UNITED NATIONS - The high-ranking ”Quartet” working on a solution to the Middle East conflict will pressure Israel to withdraw from the occupied Palestinian territories before the end of the year, as part of a comprehensive plan towards a permanent solution to the Israel-Palestine conflict. The plan, unveiled in New York on Tuesday, will be carried out in three phases over the next three years, U.N. Secretary General Kofi Annan told journalists after meetings with the ”Quartet” - the United Nations, the United States, Russia, and the European Union. The first phase, until mid-2003, will involve formulating ”performance-based criteria” for security reform, gradual withdrawal of Israeli forces to their position of September 2000 and support for the Palestinians to hold free, fair and credible elections next year, said Annan. The initial phase will also include a ministerial level meeting of a liaison committee to review the humanitarian situation and prospects for economic development in the West Bank and Gaza. It would also focus on identifying areas for donor assistance before the end of this year, the Secretary General said. In the second phase next year, ”our efforts should focus on the option of creating a Palestinian state with provisional borders based upon a new constitution, as a way station to a permanent status settlement,” said a statement released by the Quartet later in the day. In its final stage, from 2004-2005, the plan envisages a ”permanent status” solution based on Israeli-Palestinian negotiations. ”Consistent with the vision expressed by U.S. President Bush, this means that the Israeli occupation that began in 1967 will be ended through a settlement negotiated between the parties and based on U.N. resolutions 242 and 338, with Israeli withdrawal to secure and recognised borders,” it added. The Quartet was established in Madrid in April at the height of violent attacks by both sides in the long-standing conflict. Prior to releasing the plan on Tuesday, the group also held talks with Israeli and Palestinian diplomats as well as the foreign ministers of Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Saudi Arabia and Lebanon. In its plan the Quartet, for the first time, endorsed U.N. findings on the humanitarian situation in the West Bank and Gaza and urged Israel to ensure ”full, safe, and unfettered access for international humanitarian personnel”. In August last year, a U.N. report warned that rising poverty and unemployment caused by Israeli restrictions and curfews could spell a human catastrophe for the region. A U.N. special coordinator in the region claimed that more than half of the Palestinians in West Bank cities had become jobless because of curfews imposed by the Israeli army. ”Both the Palestinian reform effort and political progress must include Israeli measures to improve the lives of Palestinians,” said Annan on Tuesday, who also urged Israel to return the tax revenues owed to the Palestinian Authority. ”All Israeli settlement activity in the occupied territories must stop,” he added. The Quartet, which intends to convene an international conference on the Middle East conflict, called on Palestinians to ”work with the U.S. and regional partners” to reform their security services, strengthen policing and law and order for the civilian population, and fight ”the terror that has severely undermined the legitimate aspirations of the Palestinians”. Annan said he hoped the Israeli withdrawal would be an incentive for the Palestinians to work with the Quartet, but added: ”It's a very complex situation we are all going to deal with. It's not a situation where the Quartet can come and impose a solution.” Danish Foreign Minister Per Stig Moeller, who represented the European Union in the Quartet meeting, said making the plan work would take a long time. ”When you make a roadmap, you have to talk to a lot of people.” Many doubt that Israel would be willing to permit such a solution. Recently, a senior Israeli official made it clear to the Bush administration that his government would not allow the Palestinian Authority to hold elections in the Occupied territory. U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell said Tuesday he was aware of Israel's position but added: ”I took note of what the Israeli official said, but we have to move down a track that would open the Palestinians to express their views in election.” But Powell said there was no change in the Bush administration's desire to see Yasser Arafat removed as president of the Palestinian Authority. ”We understand he is elected by the Palestinian people, but Palestinian people are looking for a new leadership..” The Palestinian Authority plans to hold elections in the occupied territories in January next year.
I agree with a lot of your points, but Israel is a democratic theocracy at best. It is not a true democracy, and neither is the land semi-controlled by the Palestinian authority. They are both about as democratic as the other. As long as Israel has laws that prevent non-jews from holding certain offices it isn't a true democracy. In a true democracy anyone can run for the office if they meet the age requirements etc. But barring them because of religious affiliation precludes that country from being a true democracy.
You need to re-read your history. Things have gotten worse since Arab nations began using the Palestinian people to do their dirty work for them. They did that once they realized their armies would never be able to defeat Israel's army, in 1967.
There have been countless times that the Israelis have removed their forces from the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. EVERY TIME, without fail, there have been Palestinian attacks following the withdrawal. Why is this then glynch? I thought that Israeli withdrawal would solve the problem. You certainly make that case. It is a flawed answer to a difficult problem. To the Palestinian militants the Israelis are infidels, and thus, less than human. To be sure, the Israelis have committed some horrid acts in response...but they have an absolute right to defend themselves. Funny how the violence decreases once the Israeli army moves back into the West Bank and Gaza Strip.
