I am going to need the help of the cap gurus on this to confirm all the details. I find it amazing that the press is making it look like the Orlando Magic can sign all three of Grant Hill, Tim Duncan and Tracy McGrady. There are some serious flaws in the press's assumptions. First off, they say that the Magic will sign Duncan and Hill, which is doable, but then they say the Magic will pursue McGrady in a sign and trade with Ron Mercer and picks. Do they not realize that Mercer and McGrady cannot be involved in the same deal as they are BOTH FAs? If the Magic completely renounce all their FAs (Outlaw, Wallace, Amaechi, etc), then they could pay Duncan and Hill the max, but only about 7 mil would be left over for McGrady. If he is willing to take less than the max, then thats ok, but the Magic would not be able to keep the current FAs like Outlaw, Wallace and Amaechi that they want to re-sign. Those guys still count on the cap until re-nounced so the Magic cannot just start signing people w/o regard to their salary. If the Magic keep Outlaw, Wallace and Amaechi on the roster to re-sign after the fact with LBR, then they have about 19.5 mil in cap space. They could use 18 mil to sign Duncan and Hill, but obviously 1.5 mil is not getting T-Mac. The players they can sign and trade for T-Mac are the ones they have under contract, Darrell Armstrong, Pat Garrity, Matt Harpring and Michael Doleac. Instead of taking players like that (aside from Armstrong), the Raptors would be better off letting McGrady walk and using the cap room (around 5 mil) to pursue a single free agent. Thus, Duncan and Hill could very well be going to the Magic but unless McGrady is willing to take less than the max, he will not join them there. ------------------ Check out the Best Source for Draft Info Draftsource.net
I hear you, MManal. It's the Orlando's Sentinel's little fantasy. ------------------ "I wanna eat his children."
MManal, I hear what you are saying, but the whole argument hinges on whether or not multiple free agents can be included in a single sign and trade deal. I haven't seen anything in the Salary Cap FAQ that explicitly prevents this, so I just e-mailed Larry Coon to get his opinion (somebody had to do it since heypartner isn't around). I'll let you know what he says. How would letting McGrady walk give Toronto $5M in cap room? He's only making $1.7M. If Orlando is really trying to sign all three guys, then I think Houston should offer to take Mike Miller's contract off their hands in exchange for draft picks. They wouldn't need Miller if they signed McGrady and Hill. We could do Oraland a favor and take Miller and help them free up a couple of million in cap space. ------------------
How would letting McGrady walk give Toronto $5M in cap room? He's only making $1.7M. The Raptors as is are about 1 mil under the cap. If Tracy McGrady walks, and they renounce the rights to their other free agents, Muggsy Bogues, Sean Marks, John Thomas and Haywood Workman, then they have about 5 mil under the cap. ------------------ Check out the Best Source for Draft Info Draftsource.net
That's very interesting......you think we could get Bo Outlaw though instead of Mike? ------------------ I'm tha hip hop attracta, rapper slash acta, right back at cha!
If I was a Magic fan, this is the scenario I'd invent: Raptors won't do a S&T with us because we're mortal enemies. So we'll sign him as an FA and send our signed roster to San Antonio (who will need to rebuild) for Tim Duncan. That way Duncan can get $80 instead of $67 million. Then we can fill out the rest of the roster with CBA call-ups for the minimum. Our roster can be: Tim Duncan John Doe Grant Hill Tracy McGrady Joe Public Larry Citizen I'll submit however, that neither Toronto nor Detroit nor San Antonio will sign and trade with Orlando. ------------------ http://www.gaffordstudios.cjb.net/
I think that is when the Rockets' trade exception comes in handy. The Magics can sign both Hill & Duncan for 18M and then rest of their free agents (except Ron Mercer & Bo OutLaw) to get over the cap. Once they are over the cap, they could sign & trade Bo Outlaw for 4M using Larry bird exception to the Rockets for the 4.4 M trade exception. We might even be able to entice them to throw in a 1st round draft pick for Bryce on a separate deal (before they were over the cap). Finally, they can sign and trade Ron Mercer (with larry bird exception) for ~3.3M and the 4.4M trade exception plus first round draft pick(s) for Tracy McGrady's 9M price tag. Their Line up would be Starters: -------------------------- C Michael Doleac (under contract) PF Tim Duncan SF Grant Hill SG Tracy McGrady PG Darrell Armstrong (under contract) Bench: ----------- SF Matt Harpring (under contract) PF Pat Garrity (under contract) SF Mike Miller (1st round pick) PG Bryce Drew(if Rockets can entice them to add a 1st round pick for the 4.4 trade exception they need) Their own Free Agents to pick from : -------------------------------------------------- C John Amaechi (Can use 2.2 MID-LEVEL SALARY exception to sign him) G Chucky Atkins SG Chauncey Billups (can use larry bird right to sign him) PF Johnny Taylor (can use larry bird right to sign him) PF Ben Wallace (can use early bird right to sign him) SF Monty Williams Their bench might not be great with the exception of Amaechi & Miller, but they have ~6 first round picks (they might have to give up 2 picks for the McGrady trade) in the next 3 years to build their bench into the best in the league. [This message has been edited by rblh (edited July 07, 2000).] [This message has been edited by rblh (edited July 07, 2000).]
Ok, here's the response that I got from Larry Coon (the guy is really prompt): <FONT COLOR=RED> A sign-and-trade is no different from a regular trade,except that there's an extra provision that says the contract is null and void if the player isn't traded to(specific team name) within 48 hours. Also there's a provision that says the player must be signed for at least three years with at least the first year guaranteed.All of the other trade rules are exactly the same. So yes, multiple free agents can be sign-and-traded, and yes, you can aggregate players in sign-and-trade deals. Hope this helps, Larry Coon </FONT> So, that means: - you can include multiple free agents in a sign and trade deal (i.e. McGrady could be traded for Mercer). - you can include other players along with a free agent in a sign and trade deal (i.e. we could do a Mobley and Drew for player X deal) - It is possible for Orlando to sign Duncan, Hill and McGrady. ------------------ [This message has been edited by aelliott (edited July 07, 2000).] [This message has been edited by aelliott (edited July 07, 2000).]
The Raptors as is are about 1 mil under the cap. If Tracy McGrady walks, and they renounce the rights to their other free agents, Muggsy Bogues, Sean Marks, John Thomas and Haywood Workman, then they have about 5 mil under the cap. MManal, I see your logic now. It's just a little confusing since only $1.7M of that money is tied to McGrady. ------------------
Very interesting. Thanks for the info aelliott. ------------------ Check out the Best Source for Draft Info Draftsource.net
They have Bird rights on Bo Outlaw and his contract from last year was very small so his cap slot would be also. They just have to sign him last.
outlaw, Actually Bo Outlaw made $2M last year, so until he's resigned or renounced, he counts against the cap at 200% of his salary or $4M. If the Magic really intent to try to sign all three free agent's then they'll have to do something with Outlaw first. ------------------
Is this a fan forum or an economics class? ------------------ "No one gets out ALIVE!" SaveOurRockets.com
Another thing to consider(taken from NBATalk): Three way trade? To summerize, Grant Hill has made mention of a three-way sign and trade to enable the Pistons to get something back. No idea how this would actualy work, but it could clear up more space to sign all three. ------------------ [This message has been edited by Ottomaton (edited July 08, 2000).]
I wonder if our trade exception could be part of this? I wouldn't mind picking up Doleac or Jerome Williams. ------------------ The more lefties on your team, the better. Collier is Seven Foot and Left Handed. How can you go wrong? Trade or bench Kenny Thomas.
I think I read somewhere on NBAtalk that McGrady is thinking of joining Hill and Duncan, even if he has to take less money to do so, but said it's "a definite maybe. " So there you go, McGrady might be young, but he doesn't seem to be in it totally for the money. Smart kid. If he takes less to join the other two, he's got a chance at a ring every single season. ------------------ Great players aren't always great, they're only great when they have to be
