I don't wanna diss you, because you are a fellow Rocket fan, and you stated that you personally hate what happened. But I do have a problem with your culture, and I don't believe that it was all Slobo's doing. What your nation showed was repulsive ethnic intolerance and disregard for human life and dignity, and you should not be proud of it.
Hey people, calm down after all there's nothing as offensive as the Redskins and the Indians logo or even the name of that sorry arse team but you don't seem to be moping over that. Face it every place has it's good and it's bad as well just take it in stride and don't let it get to you. If you start bashing like some of you here that just makes you oppressive scum like racists, I dare any racists to step forth so that you may be put in your place.
fine. belive what you will, a few individuals do not show the actions or the will of an entire country. maybe i am blindly following my country. i dont know. but please do not offend when i have suffered personally from attacks, and then you claim that you will 'shove another missle up our asses'. we will obvoiusly not change each others opinions and i dont want to fight about it anymore. i think ill forget that this happened.
That is absolutely true. The civilized world sat on their collective a$$ in both cases and had to pay much heftier price afterwards. I remember 15 years ago a Serb I met told me some rhyme that was quite popular, something of the sort "We don't need meat we need salads, we have meat we'll slaughter Hrvats (Croats)" If people were paying attention then...
Originally posted by Panda You know what, it's laughable that you try to talk about China when you know s*it about it. Let me tell you a fact that 20% of Chinese people are minorities and there's 56 minority races in China! You know I was curious how you pulled 56 out of the air so I plugged it into Google, that search engine you can't use anymore, and I found this. I find it kind of amusing what you consider to be minorities, basically anyone from any other country is a minority. With that type of definition for minority I guess the American total would be at least three or four times the total you mentioned. Thanks for making my point. From the hinterlands of the north, to the lush jungles in the south, from the mountains of Taiwan in the east, to the top of the world in the west, China serves as home to 56 official ethnic groups. The largest group, the Han, make up over 92% of China's vast population, and it is the elements of Han civilization that world considers "Chinese culture." Yet, the 55 ethnic minorities, nestled away on China's vast frontiers, maintain their own rich traditions and customs, and all are part of Chinese culture. Yes people in Communistic system get treatment like that, the same way that the blacks being owned, beaten up, raped and sold in a DEMOCRATIC and CAPITALISTIC society. Easy to say that they can protest and force change in a Democratic system, but the fact is if it were not for a war they might still be slaves. You're not talking about Democracy or capitalism, you're talking about America. Slavery is not a part of the democratic system in fact it's directly in contrast with it while the actions I described are directly in line with Communism. It happened in the Soviet Union, it happened in Vietnam, Cuba, China, etc. Those actions are necessary for the survival of a Communist state. And here you are chastising America for it's past history of slavery and then acting like it's wrong that people felt strongly enough to fight a war to end it. Make up your mind. Maybe you don't need to worry about being unable to even sit in a frigging bus cuz I bet you are not a Black or minority people and never had the symphathy to those being slaved - you friggin don't have a clue how much of degredation it's to those blacks who can't even sit in a frigging bus as if they were dogs! So stop downplaying this evil and ugly aspect once perpetrated by your democratic system if you don't have a friggin clue! You're new to this board so you really don't know what you're talking about in regards to me. I'm hispanic and my family has not been immune to racism while living here. In fact when my mother moved here as a child the school principal had to see her first before admitting her to school to make sure she was "white enough" to attend class in a regular school. You're not going to make me blush with this ridiculously out of control rant of yours. You're still having difficulty deliniating between racism in America and the Democratic system. Spare me of your blindness to the fact that democracy as a political system can be evil as PEOPLE in general can BE evil. If people in general cannot be evil, then maybe the whole bible, god and Noah's Ark is a fiction huh? Is that why Communism is dying a slow death? I'll be fine with putting up the historical record of Democracy against Communism. Spare me of your crappy allegation of "you a communist defender" when I've said one hundred times on this board that I hate communism. You truly demonstrate the art of "labeling" people as those communists do. You have no other means to argue but resort to McCarthyism! Call me selling my soul to devils to support the current government, but as long as they push the economy forward all other things are secondary, as lives themselves are more important then added well being of lives, such as political rights. Is this you not defending Communism or are you just supporting it? I said the environment that I live in is better than the 1910's America. Well hang tight, there is a scheduled depression coming in about 10 years. I don't get to vote and so do those women and blacks. They could speak up to change things and that's a deficiency for me now, but at the same time I don't need to be humiliated day in and day out in my life, I'll give some freedom of speech to save some frigging dignity! If you can't comprehend that there's no hope for you. No hope for me? You're advocating trading your freedom for being a pawn, excuse me, a dignified pawn in a Communist system and don't see the irony in that? Mmkay...
Originally posted by Timing Originally posted by Panda You know what, it's laughable that you try to talk about China when you know s*it about it. Let me tell you a fact that 20% of Chinese people are minorities and there's 56 minority races in China! You know I was curious how you pulled 56 out of the air so I plugged it into Google, that search engine you can't use anymore, and I found this. I find it kind of amusing what you consider to be minorities, basically anyone from any other country is a minority. With that type of definition for minority I guess the American total would be at least three or four times the total you mentioned. Thanks for making my point. From the hinterlands of the north, to the lush jungles in the south, from the mountains of Taiwan in the east, to the top of the world in the west, China serves as home to 56 official ethnic groups. The largest group, the Han, make up over 92% of China's vast population, and it is the elements of Han civilization that world considers "Chinese culture." Yet, the 55 ethnic minorities, nestled away on China's vast frontiers, maintain their own rich traditions and customs, and all are part of Chinese culture. -------------------------------------------------------------------- 1. So you're assuming that 8% of China's population, which is roughly 100 million people, is neglectable in terms of Chinese politics. Are you serious? -------------------------------------------------------------------- Yes people in Communistic system get treatment like that, the same way that the blacks being owned, beaten up, raped and sold in a DEMOCRATIC and CAPITALISTIC society. Easy to say that they can protest and force change in a Democratic system, but the fact is if it were not for a war they might still be slaves. You're not talking about Democracy or capitalism, you're talking about America. Slavery is not a part of the democratic system in fact it's directly in contrast with it while the actions I described are directly in line with Communism. It happened in the Soviet Union, it happened in Vietnam, Cuba, China, etc. Those actions are necessary for the survival of a Communist state. And here you are chastising America for it's past history of slavery and then acting like it's wrong that people felt strongly enough to fight a war to end it. Make up your mind. ----------------------------------------------------------------- 2. I was not talkin about Democracy or capitalism in America? hello? are you sleep walking? Scroll up and read my posts. Slavery is not a part of the democratic system? That doesn't say anything. That's irrelevant in this discussion as I didn't say slavery is a definition of democratic system. I said America's democratic system was evil to allow it as an acceptable practice of slavery and racial discrimination. That's a fact. As to your argument of slavery in communistic countries, what's your point? The current communistic state is the same as the past American government? Make up you mind. And don't try to resort to labeling me again, first you call me spreading Soviet Union proganda and now you accused me of "acting like it's wrong that people felt strongly enough to fight a war to end it(slavery)." Unbelivably ridiculous. You know what, honestly I feel like having a conversation with a Stalinist here, the way you try to label me and put words in my mouth. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Maybe you don't need to worry about being unable to even sit in a frigging bus cuz I bet you are not a Black or minority people and never had the symphathy to those being slaved - you friggin don't have a clue how much of degredation it's to those blacks who can't even sit in a frigging bus as if they were dogs! So stop downplaying this evil and ugly aspect once perpetrated by your democratic system if you don't have a friggin clue! You're new to this board so you really don't know what you're talking about in regards to me. I'm hispanic and my family has not been immune to racism while living here. In fact when my mother moved here as a child the school principal had to see her first before admitting her to school to make sure she was "white enough" to attend class in a regular school. You're not going to make me blush with this ridiculously out of control rant of yours. You're still having difficulty deliniating between racism in America and the Democratic system. ----------------------------------------------------------- 3. And how do you think about the fact that a democratic government allows racism in form of segregation? Also, you mean the American democratic system that allows racial segragation should not be held responsible for racism? Get real. ----------------------------------------------------------- Spare me of your blindness to the fact that democracy as a political system can be evil as PEOPLE in general can BE evil. If people in general cannot be evil, then maybe the whole bible, god and Noah's Ark is a fiction huh? Is that why Communism is dying a slow death? I'll be fine with putting up the historical record of Democracy against Communism. ---------------------------------------------------------------- 4. I don't know if you are playing dumb or not, I've repeatedly stated that I'm against communism and that I support the current government is becuase I perceive them as being nominally communistic but de facto capitalistic", and you are arguing with me how bad communism is. Talk about beating a dead horse. ---------------------------------------------------------------- Spare me of your crappy allegation of "you a communist defender" when I've said one hundred times on this board that I hate communism. You truly demonstrate the art of "labeling" people as those communists do. You have no other means to argue but resort to McCarthyism! Call me selling my soul to devils to support the current government, but as long as they push the economy forward all other things are secondary, as lives themselves are more important then added well being of lives, such as political rights. Is this you not defending Communism or are you just supporting it? ----------------------------------------------------------------- 5.See above about "defending communism". It's very nice of you to copy your media's move by dissecting people's words without giving actual context to make people look bad. Ya know, the editorial magic that cuts off a part of my post in another thread and cowardly post it here without mentioning the stance I stated in that post and here. Which is the last time I'll repeat to you - I hate communism and I support the current government because I'm back in China from capitalistic countries and witnessing that the government is actually using capitalism to develop the economy. That the current government is again, to my perception, nominally communistic but de facto capitalistic. Stop your "communism defender" crap or people will see more how you are just arguing in ROUND ROUND ROUND circles. -------------------------------------------------- I said the environment that I live in is better than the 1910's America. Well hang tight, there is a scheduled depression coming in about 10 years. I don't get to vote and so do those women and blacks. They could speak up to change things and that's a deficiency for me now, but at the same time I don't need to be humiliated day in and day out in my life, I'll give some freedom of speech to save some frigging dignity! If you can't comprehend that there's no hope for you. No hope for me? You're advocating trading your freedom for being a pawn, excuse me, a dignified pawn in a Communist system and don't see the irony in that? Mmkay... -------------------------------------------------------- 6. Yep, no hope for you if you think that humilation to you is better than being unable to speak. I'd rather choose to be mute than being humiliated day in and day out as you seem having difficulties understanding. I do whatever I perceive right including trading my voting rights and freedom of speech for a real chance that my 1.3 billion people can live better lives without worrying about food. Unless it's guarenteed a democratic government can definitely bring China out of poverty I won't even consider pushing for it. The current government can't guarantee that too, but they're doing a nice job developing China's economy considering all the difficulties, if it's not broken why fix it? Why risk install a democratic system if it turns out to be impotent and waste all our efforts? You think I'm a pawn? Go ahead, I don't care what you think. I choose to support the current government's existence but not its restrictive practices. I hope China's economic development will, and in fact is, make the society and government more open. Don't like it? Bite me. --------------------------------------------------------
Now I want you to back up your claims. Tell me how he was voted in fair and square. Tell me how he was not ruling through dictorship? I need this information inorder to take you statements as the truth. I want to see how you proved that majority of the population supported his (evil)actions. Tell me since you are blaiming the Yugo people of supporting his actions therefore claim that the Yugos are as evil as him
Now I want you tell me "this so called famous rhyme". Heck I want you to provew it to me that it was not made up by some extremists group. I need to know before you make everyone here believe that it is what all Serbian people saying? P.S. I do not expect you to respond to anyone of these posts.
Originally posted by Panda 1. So you're assuming that 8% of China's population, which is roughly 100 million people, is neglectable in terms of Chinese politics. Are you serious? WTF? You tell me that I don't know **** about China because I said the US is more racially and culturally diverse and now you're talking about neglectable populations? If you believe China wouldn't experience race related problems with the type of diverse population that the US has then you're being dishonest. 2. I was not talkin about Democracy or capitalism in America? hello? are you sleep walking? Scroll up and read my posts. I said you were talking about America, it's democracy and capitalism, not strictly democracy and capitalism which is embraced by nations around the world. Slavery is not a part of the democratic system? That doesn't say anything. Uh yeah I think it does considering slavery has appeared in many nations around the world under various governmental systems. That's irrelevant in this discussion as I didn't say slavery is a definition of democratic system. I said America's democratic system was evil to allow it as an acceptable practice of slavery and racial discrimination. That's a fact. Gee thanks for that fact. The problem with your fact is that slavery appeared in North America long before the United States became a nation. The only evil in this regard is that the brilliant men who wrote our Constitution didn't force the nation to adhere to their words. A democratic system fulfills the will of the people, even a racist people. As to your argument of slavery in communistic countries, what's your point? The current communistic state is the same as the past American government? Make up you mind. The point is that slavery doesn't belong to any governmental system. Doh... You know what, honestly I feel like having a conversation with a Stalinist here, the way you try to label me and put words in my mouth. Well go find a Stalinist. Good luck. 3. And how do you think about the fact that a democratic government allows racism in form of segregation? Also, you mean the American democratic system that allows racial segragation should not be held responsible for racism? Get real. A democratic government is comprised of representatives who live in that city, state, and country. If they're racist they may try to pass racist legislation. It's not the system, it's the people and I've already shown you why racism has been a particular problem in the United States. You seem to think it's somehow inherent to democracy or even American democracy and it certainly isn't. 4. I don't know if you are playing dumb or not, I've repeatedly stated that I'm against communism and that I support the current government is becuase I perceive them as being nominally communistic but de facto capitalistic", and you are arguing with me how bad communism is. Talk about beating a dead horse. You're the one here defending incredible censorship in the name of keeping 13 year olds away from p*rn and comparing printing out literature on Taiwan to terrorism. It's very nice of you to copy your media's move by dissecting people's words without giving actual context to make people look bad. Ya know, the editorial magic that cuts off a part of my post in another thread and cowardly post it here without mentioning the stance I stated in that post and here. Which is the last time I'll repeat to you - I hate communism and I support the current government because I'm back in China from capitalistic countries and witnessing that the government is actually using capitalism to develop the economy. That the current government is again, to my perception, nominally communistic but de facto capitalistic. Stop your "communism defender" crap or people will see more how you are just arguing in ROUND ROUND ROUND circles. You hate communism and support the current communist government. Okay. 6. Yep, no hope for you if you think that humilation to you is better than being unable to speak. I'd rather choose to be mute than being humiliated day in and day out as you seem having difficulties understanding. I guess you really don't get the irony of forced silence being your humiliation. Again the difference being that with free speech there is room to force change and without it you can do no more than accept what is given to you. You really think you're on the favorable side of that one? I do whatever I perceive right including trading my voting rights and freedom of speech for a real chance that my 1.3 billion people can live better lives without worrying about food. Unless it's guarenteed a democratic government can definitely bring China out of poverty I won't even consider pushing for it. The current government can't guarantee that too, but they're doing a nice job developing China's economy considering all the difficulties, if it's not broken why fix it? Why risk install a democratic system if it turns out to be impotent and waste all our efforts? Communism has led you into poverty and death and frankly I think you're a little naive if you think it will lead you out of it. I guess we'll see. You think I'm a pawn? Go ahead, I don't care what you think. I choose to support the current government's existence but not its restrictive practices. I hope China's economic development will, and in fact is, make the society and government more open. Don't like it? Bite me. I think ultimately the current Chinese government will implode and I hope to see the day when the Chinese people can vote and participate in determining a prosperous political and economic future for their country. I'll pass on biting you... for now.
You said the US is more racially diversified than China so that racial-related problem is a non factor in China's politics. Now you are acting like you only stated a fact of US being more racially diversified than China. You certainly have a knack of dissecting sentences and paragraphs to suit your purpose. Mind telling me how to do it? Want weasel your way out of this one? Here is what you originally said: "Since China is comparatively homogenous it's laughable for you to make any racially based arguments. " Ok, let me add one more thing on the notebook, be careful that some people try to act like they stated a fact after they actually stated an opinion. Well if 100 million minority people is not a factor in China's politics then what is? Last time I checked that there's no legalized discrimination against minorities in China right now as opposed to the US until 1950's. That's one of the reasons for my initial statement of willing to live in current China than in the US in the 1910's. Look at your own words to me in just the second latest post, "You're not talking about Democracy or capitalism, you're talking about America." Again, quit twisting your own words and put words in my mouth to make an arguement, or maybe you just have such a short memory of what you said in one day, or you change your mind so quickly, make up your mind about interpreting what I said Thank you for proving my point of democratic system can be and did be evil as it allows despicable human beings to rule and treat others as worthless human beings. The system is not evil itself but it's flawed as it's susceptible to bad inflences as well. The purpose of a political system is for the well being of all societal members, people rely on a political system to choose the right leader, in other words, the system is responsible for choosing the righteous men as leaders just like the voters are. Therefore, a flawed political system allows bad and mean people to reign. The democratic systems in general is flawed as it has no measure against racists and sexists reigning as long as people see fit, there should be some mechanism that forbids people to vote if they are racists but there isn't, this is not only akin to America's democratic system. A perfect political system doesn't exist in this world. Don't you agree that nothing is perfect? It then follows that the democratic system must also be flawed, don't you admit that the democratic system is flawed in the aspect of choosing leaders? and could you tell me what those flaws are if you know? Democratic system is flawed and inherently a specific democracy can be evil somtimes. If you want to play it like this, I'll say that you are the one who believes absolute freedom should be present in the internet including child p*rn. Mind your words again, should I tell you to stop twisting my words again? I said supporting Taiwan rebellion in China is the same thing as supporting terrorism in America, therefore printing out pro Taiwan rebellion literature is considered subversive, not the ridiculous way you try to make it look like "comparing printing out literature on Taiwan to terrorism." Talking about sweating communists techniques of distorting facts and labeling people. I think you certainly showed your intelligence , or the lack thereof, in this thread. And this is right after telling you that I support the current government as they are, in my view, nominally communistic yet de facto capitalistic. Unbeliavable selective memory. I've said I don't remember how many times that I support a "nominally communistic but de facto capitalistic" government, and that I hate communism, yet you keep harping on "you support a communist government", big difference there. Let me ask you, are you playing dumb? can't distinguish between a bona fide communism and a capitalism under the disguise of communism? or you major in MaCarthism? Well, if you don't believe what I said about that China as being de facto capitalistic, why don't you say it out loud and quit taking cheap shots at me? Forced silence is nothing ideal, but it beats being treated like worthless human beings. In fact, the very reason for forced silence is that those leaders don't deem myself as worthless, at least they fear my and my countrymen's thoughts and the communication of it, hence forced silence. Why should I feel it's humiliation when they are doing it for their survival as a dictating regime, viewing my and other's thoughts as an important factor in their reigning and not because they despise me as a human being as racism does? Mouth gagging is a torture but it's not humiliation. I don't think forced silence reflects the legalized despise that you'd receive if you were born in the earlier half of the last century in America, as a minority. Did your mother powder her face into Snow White so that she could be admitted into schools of legalized segregation? 'cuz if she did that means she'd suffer day in and day out humiliation as a dark skinned person. I'd rather being tortured than living under despise and humiliation, unlike some people . I think you are naive if you think an average of above 7% yearly increase in GDP in the past ten years of China won't eventually lead herself out of poverty, and you are further more naive if you believe a communistic system can achieve China's world renowned developing speed as well as make nearly everything in US supermarkets made in China. BTW, You should really consider as being a newspaper's editor or MaCarthism politian as you are good at it. For people who's interested in how Timing distort facts to smear my image, here is the thread in which he used the editorials above to make me look bad. http://bbs.clutchcity.net/php3/showthread.php?threadid=40616
Again, I don't want to start fights with people who are clearly against the genocide, and certainly not in this forum, but you should take a closer look at what happened and ask yourself a few questions: Were opposition parties banned in Yuogoslavia? Why did they do so poorly? Were 100s of thousands of people forced and threatened somehow into going out on the streets to support Milosevich? Were foreign radio and TV stations scrambled so that the Serbian could not obtain information of what's going on in the muslim vilages? Yugo was never a closed totalitarian dictatorship. Even in Communist times people in Yugoslavia were better informed than any other communist country, they were listening to BBC and Voice of America and they knew what was going on.
Where is the proof? When did you see 100s of thousands of people on street to support Milosevic actions. I want to ask yourself who had total control over the media in Yugo at time. Also who killed alot of oppossition leaders or (former leaders) in Yugo. Now tell me how Milosevic did not run the country as a dictorship. Also only people in the major cities had access to other stations then Yugo. Tell me what charges is Milosevic faceing in his own country. maybe that will show some insight on how the opposition did so bad in the elections. You know what really makes me upset is people like you that come in in thier high hourse saying that we should not be proud of our culture when you yourself does not have a clue in what went on in the country. What makes you the judge of people? What goes you the right to tell people they should express any happiness toward thier country and in thier Basketball. I think the only one who should be sorry is you for your ignorance on the subject on hand. I will waiting for your appology
Originally posted by Panda You said the US is more racially diversified than China so that racial-related problem is a non factor in China's politics. Now you are acting like you only stated a fact of US being more racially diversified than China. You certainly have a knack of dissecting sentences and paragraphs to suit your purpose. Mind telling me how to do it? Want weasel your way out of this one? Here is what you originally said: "Since China is comparatively homogenous it's laughable for you to make any racially based arguments. " Ok, let me add one more thing on the notebook, be careful that some people try to act like they stated a fact after they actually stated an opinion. China IS comparatively homogenous, that IS a fact. Chinese majority makes up 92% of it's population which if you use the same standards of your "56 minority groups" is MUCH higher a percentage than in America. You want to use race based arguments in comparing governments yet don't share anywhere near the same racial diversity. Well if 100 million minority people is not a factor in China's politics then what is? Last time I checked that there's no legalized discrimination against minorities in China right now as opposed to the US until 1950's. That's one of the reasons for my initial statement of willing to live in current China than in the US in the 1910's. 100 million people is a lot of people but it's only 8% of your population. Your comparisons are apples and oranges. Walk in America's shoes and then you can talk about race related issues. Again, quit twisting your own words and put words in my mouth to make an arguement, or maybe you just have such a short memory of what you said in one day, or you change your mind so quickly, make up your mind about interpreting what I said. I'm not twisting a damn thing. You're talking about slavery and segragation in the context of America. You're not talking about democracy itself, you're talking about American problems. Thank you for proving my point of democratic system can be and did be evil as it allows despicable human beings to rule and treat others as worthless human beings. The system is not evil itself but it's flawed as it's susceptible to bad inflences as well. The democratic system is far less flawed than Communism. You're acting like if the will of the people is somehow distorted on particular issues that it compares to a system run by an unchecked dictatorship. The worst of Communism far outweights the worst of a working Democracy. The purpose of a political system is for the well being of all societal members, people rely on a political system to choose the right leader, in other words, the system is responsible for choosing the righteous men as leaders just like the voters are. Therefore, a flawed political system allows bad and mean people to reign. The democratic systems in general is flawed as it has no measure against racists and sexists reigning as long as people see fit, there should be some mechanism that forbids people to vote if they are racists but there isn't, this is not only akin to America's democratic system. Yeah well when the US elects the next Mao Tse Tung and he ends up getting 30 million Americans killed because of hunger then maybe you'll have a point. Racist and sexist beliefs are not illegal, nor should they be. This is a free society and people are allowed to believe what they want. There is no Gestapo thought control police. If someone wants to believe that their shoe is God then that's their right in this country. A perfect political system doesn't exist in this world. Don't you agree that nothing is perfect? It then follows that the democratic system must also be flawed, don't you admit that the democratic system is flawed in the aspect of choosing leaders? and could you tell me what those flaws are if you know? Democratic system is flawed and inherently a specific democracy can be evil somtimes. Sooooometimes as opposed to Communism all the time. If you want to play it like this, I'll say that you are the one who believes absolute freedom should be present in the internet including child p*rn. Um, no sorry. Adults having sex with children is already illegal so I don't see how it could be suddenly legal just because it's on the internet. Mind your words again, should I tell you to stop twisting my words again? I said supporting Taiwan rebellion in China is the same thing as supporting terrorism in America, therefore printing out pro Taiwan rebellion literature is considered subversive, not the ridiculous way you try to make it look like "comparing printing out literature on Taiwan to terrorism." I don't think you're going to get many points for comparing a movement of independence from Communism to suicide bombers killing innocent civilians. If Americans didn't start a rebellion against the British monarchy we wouldn't even have a country. People who want freedom from tyranny should rebel. Talking about sweating communists techniques of distorting facts and labeling people. I think you certainly showed your intelligence , or the lack thereof, in this thread. You know that's really pathetic. How old are you? 12? And this is right after telling you that I support the current government as they are, in my view, nominally communistic yet de facto capitalistic. Unbeliavable selective memory. I've said I don't remember how many times that I support a "nominally communistic but de facto capitalistic" government, and that I hate communism, yet you keep harping on "you support a communist government", big difference there. Let me ask you, are you playing dumb? can't distinguish between a bona fide communism and a capitalism under the disguise of communism? or you major in MaCarthism? Well, if you don't believe what I said about that China as being de facto capitalistic, why don't you say it out loud and quit taking cheap shots at me? Which is the last time I'll repeat to you - I hate communism and I support the current government because I'm back in China from capitalistic countries and witnessing that the government is actually using capitalism to develop the economy. These are your own words. Take a cheap shot at yourself. Forced silence is nothing ideal, but it beats being treated like worthless human beings. I don't see how you don't understand how silly your statement on this is. The government doesn't give a damn what you think about anything and somehow you feel valued. In fact, the very reason for forced silence is that those leaders don't deem myself as worthless, at least they fear my and my countrymen's thoughts and the communication of it, hence forced silence. Why should I feel it's humiliation when they are doing it for their survival as a dictating regime, viewing my and other's thoughts as an important factor in their reigning and not because they despise me as a human being as racism does? Mouth gagging is a torture but it's not humiliation. I don't think forced silence reflects the legalized despise that you'd receive if you were born in the earlier half of the last century in America, as a minority. Did your mother powder her face into Snow White so that she could be admitted into schools of legalized segregation? 'cuz if she did that means she'd suffer day in and day out humiliation as a dark skinned person. I'd rather being tortured than living under despise and humiliation, unlike some people. So you're okay with being tortured as long as you're not humiliated. That make sense I guess. I think you are naive if you think an average of above 7% yearly increase in GDP in the past ten years of China won't eventually lead herself out of poverty, and you are further more naive if you believe a communistic system can achieve China's world renowned developing speed as well as make nearly everything in US supermarkets made in China. The Chinese economy is a relative infant on the world stage and with admission to the WTO will be more subject to competition and trends in the world economy which it hasn't been open to in the past. It could improve 7% every year for 50 years and still be far far behind the United States. You're also not taking into account inevitable social unrest in China which may lead to revolution and Communists are pretty heavy handed when it comes to quelling revolution. For people who's interested in how Timing distort facts to smear my image, here is the thread in which he used the editorials above to make me look bad. A Panda with an image. Well isn't that different.
Which one do you prefer if you have to choose? Mouth gagging or a middle finger in your face everyday? In other words, forced silence or legalized racism? I'll choose the former over the latter. I've stated that forced silence is torture and the fact that people's thinking and exchange of opinions are feared by and of great concern to the dictators, hence the constant forced silence to prevent exchange of opinions. Now you are saying I feel valued by such torture, hm... seems there's another case of comprehension ineptitude here. I agree with that communism is wrong at all times and democracy beats communism, but I don't see the point in such statement here as I'm not talking about communism vs democracy in general. I'm talking about a specific case, about a nominally communistic yet de facto capitalistic China of nowadays vs. democratic yet racially discriminatory America in 1910's. This stance is very clear and consistent through my post but somehow you missed it. My point is that the Chinese people, although living under dictatorship and suffers, still beats some African Americans that lived sadder lives on this land as a result of legalized oppression under democracy, as to counter the apparent American egocentrism evident in this thread. Now back to the topic, this discussion in this thread is for my notion of preference of living in the current China than to living in the 1910's America as a minority. For the following reasons: 1. As you admitted, a democratic system can be evil at times. 2. The 1910's American democracy is evil in that it legalizes racism, depriving blacks of their voting rights and force them to face humiliation in their daily lives. 3. The current China lacks in the aspect of voting rights, so it's a wash here. It also lacks freedom of speech, which to me, is a form of torture but not humilation as the motive of such torture is not to try to humiliate me but to prevent me knowing the truth. 4. To my personal preference, I'd take torture than a middle finger in my face day in and day out. To others, forced silence might be considered as humiliation, but I think if one chooses having a middle finger in one's face everyday over forced silence, clearly he/she just wants to be a talking machine without self esteem. But you are avoiding to give me a straight answer of my accessment of the current China being de facto capitalistic. You said that China's poverty is caused by communism(which further shows your lack of understanding of China as China was already poor before communism, and the poverty of China is one of the cause for China's falling for communism, but that's another story) With that said You've been unable to explain that why China can enjoy one of the highest developing speed in the world in a long time frame under "communism". On the one side you say communism causes poverty, on the other side it's a fact China under "communism" is moving away from the direction of poverty", how do you explain such contradiction? Do you think that something causes poverty can make people richer and richer over the past 20 years? I'm not arguing with you that China will definitely be a developed country under the current government, I was merely pointing out such a possibility and my willingness to pursue that possibility. Your listing of China's social difficulties and distance from American economy in economic development is again, irrelevant in this regard, as these difficulties don't definitely eliminate such a possibility. Why don't you tell me a straight answer as to whether China is really communistic or de facto capitalistic instead of beating around the bush? and if you think China is still communistic, how do you explain its rapid economic development? Look at the inner workings of things, you think that a mafia with a democratic system is justified to rob? Democracy is a negative thing when it's a tool for the bad guys. People can change in the future and become good but how can people rob just because they are democratic? The Americans were oppressed by the British therefore they should've rebelled, the Taiwanese are guarenteed with self governing upon rejoining China therefore your old democracy escapes communism reasoning is invalid in this case.Taiwanese goes for independance as many of them hate Chinese culture, as a result of brainwashing during Japan's colonization.The vice president of Taiwan even openly thank Japan for it's cultural extinction practice during its reigning. I'm not going to talked about this more as this Taiwan issue is out of the topic. Oops, contradiction again. In another thread you said: The internet is precisely meant to be a zone where information can roam free and be shared around the world. What has the USA banned on the internet? Child p*rn? Please... Let's see, you say the internet should be free, but at the same time you say some information like child p*rn is illegal in general and therefore is banned on the internet. Why don't you admit your absolute freedom complex is not practical in the real world, and certain censorship should be in place and get done with it. In case you miss the point again, let me put it short: Since child sex is forbidden, therefore child p*rn in general and in the internet is illegal and censored, so the notion of an internet where infomation roaming free is wrong and baseless. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ There you go round and round and round again. Communism demands dictatorship, China's so called "communism" is just a mask and crutch for the leaders to dictate, the leader make it look like communism so they can call for dictatorship, while China's true face is actually capitalism, which is the exact reason of China's rapid development. Quit labeling me as supporting communism when I told you I mean to support a nominal communism which is de facto capitalism. There's a world of difference between "bona fide" and "nominal" in case you still can't comprehend!! Ergghh... the stupidity and ridiculousness in this world never cease to amaze me! I was talking about a fact, in another thread, that in China Taiwan independance is considered subversive and censored, and you use that cowardly and deceivingly to claim in this thread that I "defend censorship as comparing printing out literature on Taiwan to terrorim" to make me look ridiculous. After my accusation to you of dissecting and twisting my words, you go on harp on Taiwan's rights to independance. Nice trick of dodging main points and image smearing, mind telling me where did you learn it? A one liner as a response to the flaws of democratic system? I asked you about the flaws of democratic and you give me "democracy is better than communism"?is that all you can do? who's the pathetic 12 year old here. If that's the case I'd rather stop this discussion 'cuz I don't take pleasure in talking to a wall! Beating around bush. Playing a lil word games. Dodging some points. Put words in people's mouth. I've learnt a great deal in this thread.
Originally posted by Panda Which one do you prefer if you have to choose? Mouth gagging or a middle finger in your face everyday? In other words, forced silence or legalized racism? I'll choose the former over the latter. I live in 2002 America, not 1910 America or 1950 China or 1990 China. I think my choice is pretty obvious. I've stated that forced silence is torture and the fact that people's thinking and exchange of opinions are feared by and of great concern to the dictators, hence the constant forced silence to prevent exchange of opinions. Now you are saying I feel valued by such torture, hm... seems there's another case of comprehension ineptitude here. Comprehension ineptitude indeed, maybe you should go back and read it again. I agree with that communism is wrong at all times and democracy beats communism, but I don't see the point in such statement here as I'm not talking about communism vs democracy in general. I'm talking about a specific case, about a nominally communistic yet de facto capitalistic China of nowadays vs. democratic yet racially discriminatory America in 1910's. This stance is very clear and consistent through my post but somehow you missed it. My point is that the Chinese people, although living under dictatorship and suffers, still beats some African Americans that lived sadder lives on this land as a result of legalized oppression under democracy, as to counter the apparent American egocentrism evident in this thread. China is nominally Communist my ass. What is the Communist Party meeting later this year about? Are they exhanging recipes on frog legs? Even though Communism is an economic concept it very much has political tendencies and characteristics. Among those are tyranny and lack of freedoms and human rights. That's very much the case in China right now. You're not going to soft pedal Chinese Communism to me and pawn it off as just some mysterious transitional phase to Democracy. Now back to the topic, this discussion in this thread is for my notion of preference of living in the current China than to living in the 1910's America as a minority. For the following reasons: 1. As you admitted, a democratic system can be evil at times. 2. The 1910's American democracy is evil in that it legalizes racism, depriving blacks of their voting rights and force them to face humiliation in their daily lives. 3. The current China lacks in the aspect of voting rights, so it's a wash here. It also lacks freedom of speech, which to me, is a form of torture but not humilation as the motive of such torture is not to try to humiliate me but to prevent me knowing the truth. 4. To my personal preference, I'd take torture than a middle finger in my face day in and day out. To others, forced silence might be considered as humiliation, but I think if one chooses having a middle finger in one's face everyday over forced silence, clearly he/she just wants to be a talking machine without self esteem. *So 1910 American blacks couldn't vote, you can't vote. *Blacks suffered racism, you suffer from lack of most basic human rights including reproductive freedom. *Blacks through freedom of speech were able to organize boycotts and protests to change their condition, you can't do anything due to possible imprisonment or death. Yeah, I see your point or something. You know what the weird thing is, you're handpicking one of the worst periods in US history for a specific group of minorities and it's still a pretty shady choice for you. But you are avoiding to give me a straight answer of my accessment of the current China being de facto capitalistic. You said that China's poverty is caused by communism(which further shows your lack of understanding of China as China was already poor before communism, and the poverty of China is one of the cause for China's falling for communism, but that's another story) With that said You've been unable to explain that why China can enjoy one of the highest developing speed in the world in a long time frame under "communism". So nations like the US spent the last 50 years going through unbelievable technological and industrial growth while China turned to Communism and sputtered along mostly, having difficulty feeding it's people and that's not the fault of Communism? You're really quick with the personal insults which is becoming quite annoying but maybe you should give your opinions a little more thought. If China had been a Democracy over the last 50 years there is no doubt it would be much MUCH farther ahead economically than it is now. China's economy right now is tiny, you say it's one of the highest developing in the world but when you have little it doesn't take much to grow quickly. China's GDP is 1 trillion dollars, 7% growth is 70 billion dollars. The US GDP is 10 trillion dollars, so even with 1% growth it gains more dollars than China. China's economy is so small and it's resources so large that it would be gross incompetence for it's economy not to grow. When you consider that China has 4 times the population of the US and 1/10th of it's GDP, well that's sick in terms of how comparatively poor the average Chinese citizen is and that's what Communism has brought you. Taking that further and considering how capitalism will introduce social change to China and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that a clash between government and the people is inevitable. I'm not arguing with you that China will definitely be a developed country under the current government, I was merely pointing out such a possibility and my willingness to pursue that possibility. Your listing of China's social difficulties and distance from American economy in economic development is again, irrelevant in this regard, as these difficulties don't definitely eliminate such a possibility. Why don't you tell me a straight answer as to whether China is really communistic or de facto capitalistic instead of beating around the bush? and if you think China is still communistic, how do you explain its rapid economic development? Yes China is really Communist and is trying to incorporate aspects of capitalism in hopes that they can maintain power. It won't work in the end. The Americans were oppressed by the British therefore they should've rebelled, the Taiwanese are guarenteed with self governing upon rejoining China therefore your old democracy escapes communism reasoning is invalid in this case. They're guaranteed self governing before or after Chinese troops are on Taiwan soil? Maybe they should invite the Dalai Lama over and ask him about that. Taiwanese goes for independance as many of them hate Chinese culture, as a result of brainwashing during Japan's colonization. What is it with Communism and always blaming things on brainwashing. People do have brains and it's simply propaganda on your part to say they're brainwashed. Maybe you're the one who's brainwashed, you do have state run media after all. The vice president of Taiwan even openly thank Japan for it's cultural extinction practice during its reigning. I'm not going to talked about this more as this Taiwan issue is out of the topic. Wow a freely expressed opinion by an elected official? HOLEY MOLEY!!!! Let's get that guy to a Gulag prison right away!!! Let's see, you say the internet should be free, but at the same time you say some information like child p*rn is illegal in general and therefore is banned on the internet. Why don't you admit your absolute freedom complex is not practical in the real world, and certain censorship should be in place and get done with it. When I said information should roam free I obviously meant legal information. I don't advocate a computer internet program that can murder people on the other end of a chat program because the internet is just a free place where information should roam free. I can't believe how idiotic you've twisted free information to mean child p*rnography. Christ... Since child sex is forbidden, therefore child p*rn in general and in the internet is illegal and censored, so the notion of an internet where infomation roaming free is wrong and baseless. Yeah thanks for clearing that one up for me Forrest. This is a waste of my damn time.
Finally we are getting down to the meat of the argument. Blacks through freedom of speech were able to organize boycotts and protests to change their condition? They did, but that's because they and other Americans died for it first. That was what the American civil war was for. As to my can't do anything due to possible imprisonment or death, my take is if the evil racism could be on downfall through wars, there' no way that these aspects of political rights won't loosen up in a rapidly developing and opening China. In fact the Chinese people are gaining slowly limited but substancial political rights right now, not through *ahem* a civil war, but as a natural result of China's opening. We are on an easier path than fighting with our blood to gain basic human rights as long as China keeps her opening. The government is becoming gradually openminded to the extent of tolerating limited but open criticism from the people on its corruption and legal construction, which is unimaginable before. You know in your "the great firewall of China" article that there is Chinese citizens who petition against government internet censorship and is not being arrested. People in China are suing and won cases against govenment agencies etc...We still have a long way to go but we are making progress instead of waiting to die as you depicted here. Just like Korea and Taiwan, China will change from dictatorship into democracy after her economic takeoff. So let's just see how much the Chinese will give up for their basic rights as opposed to the black people in America in the near future. As to China's being capitalistic, the communistic characterisitcs you said such as tyranny and lack of basic human rights are off base. They are not communistic characteristics but dictatorship characteristics. Taiwan and Korea were both under tyranny and lacked voting rights and freedom of speech as capitalistic regions during their economic takeoff. On the other side, China has already legalized the legit status of private ownership, it's in the constitution that says "private property is sacred and cannot be violated." There is Chinese who become rich capitalists rapidly by owning their businesses and compete in free markets under free competition. Forbes recently conducted a survey on 100 Chinese wealthiest individuals, the richest Chinese in China now is Liu Yong Hao, owning a multifaceted corporation in China with assets worthy of 1 billion US dollars. So these rich men are communists with their own private corporations? The key characteristics of communism is the state hogging production resources and planned economy and the folloing void of private enterprises. China has legitimized private ownership, recognized the importance of capitalists, was, is and will be opening her market for more free competition. If these are not signs of China being capitalistic than what is? Just because the communist party still has the word "communist" doesn't mean the party members are really for communism. Yes they are hardcore communists while they use capitalism to help themselves to maintain power. Sorry, real communists despise capitalism and would never ever be related to capitalism. Fake communists of China welcome Bill Gates and capitalists all over the world to come and invest his money. Billions of US dollars from all over the worldare invested in China are obviously those capitalists trust their money in the "communits" hands. It's working now and will work further and one day those "communists" will take off their masks and tell people who they really are all along.
Timing, I noticed that a lot of your threads turn into racism threads. I thought this thread was originally about Yugoslavia losing again?
i thought so too. come on people, every country did things there not proud of. it is ok to be proud of your country as long as it is not blind pride. you should be able to see if your country did something wrong,
CAN'T WE ALL GET ALONG secondly, europeans try to pass off us beer as weaker, which is just not true.... is german beer better then us? yeah, is it the best? no I prefer czech... THIRDLY hehe, Europeans truly think of the US as a very racist place, to be honest, its not that bad as pretty much anyone can attest to as far as it keeping anyone here in this country horrible down... But the TRUTH of it is, is Europeans are VERY racist, very open minded but very race orientated, for christ sakes the weirdest thing that happened when i HAD to go to germany from magyarosok, was when I looked up on the train and saw everyone in the car had blue eyes, then I remembered they killed all my people... Does the US remind me of pre wwII germany???? In alot of ways yes... Is germany pathetic? Most definately, silly number people, completely harmless and akward... thats why most Americans like em... Good cars for sure... hehehe
From THE DEVIL'S DICTIONARY PATRIOTISM, n. In Dr. Johnson's famous dictionary patriotism is defined as the last resort of a scoundrel. With all due respect to an enlightened but inferior lexicographer I beg to submit that it is the first.
