Moe, I do understand we may have set up the deal before hand, but that is no excuse. It may not have been a great deal to start with, and became a very bad deal after Przy fell into our laps and Moiso and Thomas got picked before 15. With us being in control (we were in good draft position as we knew in all likelihood Prz or Johnson or Miller was likely to be available to us), we shouldn't make deals unless we know we will like the outcome. IMO we should have dealt with teams with better pick prospects (there are many, most of which were in need of a center), or alternately said OK we are interested but this deal doesn't go down unless TT is involved somehow (to us). We owed Milw no favors, they were desperate for a center. I don't know if they have a BBS, but I am sure their org and fans are thrilled with the deal(s) they have gotten. Think of it if the reverse way, if we could have moved up to get say Fizer or Miles, even at the cost of next years #1, I for one would have been much happier. What we got in value for the #2 center in the draft (who some thought would be top 5) didn't seem right + we didn't get the kind of player I think would help us the most out of the best draft position we had earned in years. ------------------ "The Rockets were ahead of the Suns by 20 late in game 2 of the series, but when the going got tough, we just Pippened . We would not be done in the series though."
"I don't know if they have a BBS, but I am sure their org and fans are thrilled with the deal(s) they have gotten." I don't know Sir, once they find out they got another Ervin Johnson, have another mediocre season, and find themselves without a first-round draft pick, they might look back and wonder what the hell they were thinking! ------------------ Tell me I sold out, go ahead
Sir...In a nutshell...AMEN. Youve nailed my man. Im not going to be sold on this being a decent draft after all. There were way better things to come of this draft than Jason Collier. I dont know. I watched the kid play maybe 10-12 games, and have never been impressed. Lightly surprised sometimes, yes. I want to know where all this Atheleticism is that Collier supposedly has? For a 7 footer, playing boys in college you think you can get more than one block per game. Hell 7 footers stumble into one block per game. Freak...Explain to me how you speak of Cabbage's "opinions" maybe being the problem, then go on to say about next years draft being strong in the opinions of others. Like I said. Unless anyone here can tell me which underclassmen are declaring, and which HSers are coming out, you cant call it a strong draft. Milwaukee will end up with a pick at around 20. Like Almu said, anyway you slice it, dumb move.
TheFreak, the Cat: You guys say that next year's draft will be very deep. Let me respond by saying that it will be deep only if all the undersclassmen declare. As we all know, that won't happen. Imagine you're Terrence Morris [or someone else slotted to go in the #12-#20 range]. You have skills, and in any other normal draft, you'd be a lock for the lottery. Yet, in this draft, you'll be going late because of guys like Loren Wood and Gerald Wallace. Tell me, wouldn't you rather just stay in school another year, and try again next year when those top guys are gone? The top picks get the big $$. Stepping back to reality, if the above scenario occurred with the mid-range picks returning to school, wouldn't that greatly decrease the overall talent level? Wouldn't that put a fork in the Rockets plans? ------------------ "I wanna eat his children."
tcab-So, if I'm Terrence Morris, when do I realize I'm a senior, so I'm automatically in the draft? ------------------ The more lefties on your team, the better. Collier is Seven Foot and Left Handed. How can you go wrong? Trade or bench Kenny Thomas.
NIKE, Are there enough sure thing seniors to know how deep the draft will be? Remember, this time last year everyone was saying Porter would be the #1. They were nearly reading the draft backwards. ------------------ no fat chicks
Yeah, I understand what some of you guys are saying about Collier and the other guy, but the question that needs to be asked is...are these two dudes good enough on a long-term basis? I mean come on, there are very few white guys in the NBA worth mentioning. The only two I can think of are Keith Van Horn and Jason Williams as well as-dare I say it...John Stockton. I have heard differing remarks regarding their athleticism. Some say they can shoot but are not very athletic and still others say that they can shoot as well as being very athletic. I haven't seen these guys play at all, but I am always wary about teams drafting white forwards...they usually get their butts kicked. ...simple truth it seems... ------------------ Thoughts from KANE..........
Achebe-How many good seniors were in this draft, 3? (Martin, Alexander, and I'm saying Collier because he's a Rocket ) Underclassmen are leaving faster and faster. The high school crop is one of the best in years. The underclassmen crop is tremendous. Here are some of the big name seniors: Loren Woods Brendan Haywood Terrence Morris Shane Battier Jamal Tinsley Those are the biggest names, then guys like Alvin Jones, Ken Johnson, Kaspars Kambala, and Tony Harris are also seniors (Dan Gadzuric also already has said his junior season will be his last) The Junior crop is also pretty full, names like Troy Murphy, Yarbrough, Tayshaun Prince, Richard Jefferson, Ajou Deng, and a JuCo recruit Cinci just got named Antwan Jones (6'8'' SF...could the story of Steve Francis reemerge? ) All of those, except for Murphy who's a combo forward are SF, and legitimately sized SFs. ------------------ The more lefties on your team, the better. Collier is Seven Foot and Left Handed. How can you go wrong? Trade or bench Kenny Thomas.
Add Sabonis, Gugliotta, Ilgauskas, Smits, maybe Croshere . . . Come to think of it . . . Why am I bothering to reply to this inane "white players suck" argument? You guys are soooooooo right? The only good players are black and they all have 40+" verticals and run the 40 yd dash in under 4 seconds Carry on with your stereotypes . . . ------------------
Thanks Launching Pad, it's good to see that you agree... ------------------ Thoughts from KANE..........
Wow, I've been watching this site for a long while now, reading post and enjoying news and rumors. Never have I registered or felt like I needed to till I read this thread. How ridiculous! The trade was #9 for #15 and future pick(possible 11+). As stated the trade eliminated some money by moving to #15. "We need to get a big man to match with Shaq and Wallace." Hmm I'm sure moiso would do a great job on Wallace and Shaq, I'm sure Pzy would do a great job on Wallace and Shaq. Do you hear yourselfs? How bout getting another subpar role player at #9 instead of trying to setup for the future. You know the future, when The Rockets will be contending for more than a 1st round appearance. Don't get me wrong I love the rockets and their chances, but there is no ring this year, period. Why waste a #9 pick for now, when the #15 and the #20 at worst a year from now could fit your system alot better. Let me ask you, can anyone straight up guard a Shaq, can anyone in this last years draft guard him? So please stop, you can't stop a superstar straight up until you have a superstar at same position squaring off with the other. Is Pzy that superstar?? As also stated next years draft looks very good and we will be pretty well under the cap if everything goes as planned. Next year is the year to make a big jump. I kinda feel like our fans are spoiled or something...remember Charles is gone, Hakeem had health problems and most likely is not the same as the 'dream' we are accustomed with. Last year was our first rebuilding year. Last year was our FIRST rebuilding year. Last year was our FIRST rebuilding year. Sorry for being repettitve, did you get that??? Contenders aren't made over night...and they sure as hell aren't made in a WEAK draft at #9 and #38. Another thing, who knows what was on the table for Pzy?? Who here is the gm for GS that can tell us they would of traded a high lottery pick for Pzy??? Unless you know for a fact that something was on the table that was soo much better than what we did, please stop saying 'we could of, well what if we, maybe this team wanted him, maybe this or that'. Please for the love of truth! How do you eliminate a dominate defensive big man? Do we not remember when the Sonics had Sam Perkins? He made threes like crazy and made Hakeem honor his shooting. I don't know anything about Collier, but I keep hearing he can shoot, even by bashers. Whats so bad about that? Yes he's no Duncan, but he fts our system and can shoot. Does Sabonis ring a bell? Shoots well from outside and demands respect for his jumper. When Brian Grant was in the game against Lakers, why did their defense work?? Brian Grant is not 7 foot or anything, not even a center. Because they played team defense and worked their asses off getting the ball out of Shaqs hands and scrambling using their speed and athleticism. Sorry for rambling....it sickens me to see true rockets fans in disgust over players and moves that they will be in love with in a year or two.I'm going to be laughing at all you negative people on this board at next years draft, or when we sign a very good FA next year, or better yet we contend for a championship in 3-5 years from when we STARTED rebuilding. I remember you 'Choke City' fans, when I was still proud of them and wishing them on, still hoping and believing in them, most others were putting them down, burying them with disrespect. What now your 'Clutch City' fans? Pitiful ------------------ 'if you want love you must be love, but if you bleed love you will die loved' [This message has been edited by Gibblets (edited July 02, 2000).]
Sorry, can't let this slide, Gibblets. We are all here because we are fans of the Rockets and (or many of us) like thinking up ways to make the team better. This includes identifying mistakes that we think we can learn from. If we take out the conjecture, you will get only a couple of threads in the BBS per week. If this bothers you so much don't start reading threads where we obviously aren't saying rah, rah, this, rah, rah that. Some of enjoy speculation, even if it doesn’t always put the Rockets decisions in the best light. Not that the Rockets org is listening to us, but healthy organizations benefit from thoughtful dissent and improve in the long run by acknowledging mistakes. But it is your choice to read the threads you think you want to bother with and ignore ones that you think might burn you up too much to respectfully handle--this is your call. For you to spew a bunch of BS about negative fans this, negative fans that, I will laugh at you later, etc., is just lame though. Most of us who didn’t like how our draft went down would like nothing better to be proved wrong and see new rookies become future all-stars. I would much rather be wrong, than be right and have these decisions not work out for us. In the future if you have some comments or arguments to make do it, but please leave out the rants. Please keep on reading, and not posting, if you can’t civilly express your view without labeling posters and groups of fans sharing a position as bandwagoners, clueless, spineless, etc., just because they don’t see things your way. As far as the content I could pull out our your rant, a couple of points: nobody said there is a Shaq or Wallace stopper in the draft. But a collection of longer, quicker, stronger and more athletic front-court players is a place to start. As an example, the team that was most able to do this was Portland, with a a lot of quick and long interchangable front court players. We know teams are built in a day, that is why we thought it was a good time to add a defender or two to lesson the degree (not eliminate) our mismatches in the font court from the defensive side of the ball. My main concern is rather than drafting for defense, athleticism, and length on the front line, we went for guys to fit in the offensive system-sorry if you don’t see this as a reasonable perspective even if you don’t agree. I carefully went through and supported why I thought we shouldn’t rush to add offense before shoring the defense, and that I am not convinced the offense focused teams are ready to rule the league yet. I also thought we could have players fit where I think we should go with just a little tiny bit more tweaking (Thomas, Moiso). Of course this is my opinion. It is also my opinion that what we got for Prz appeared a little low relative to other centers drafted near his position, and maybe we jumped the gun moving him (or committing to move him) before a better deal could be made. Yes, this is conjecture-but I spent a fair amount of time and thought supporting why I thought this. If you don’t want to read such content, just ignore it! Just so you know, a “forum”--as in BBS forum--is a place for discussion and exchange of ideas with mutual respect. Please, for the love of civil discourse!!! ------------------ "The Rockets were ahead of the Suns by 20 late in game 2 of the series, but when the going got tough, we just Pippened . We would not be done in the series though."
If you want to make a point, make it, but don't come in here with that "My blood is Rocket red, what kind of fans are you for disagreeing with Rudy? Shame on all of you, you are not true Rocket fans" BS. That gets old very fast. Noone here is jumping off the wagon, we're just questioning the direction of the horse at its head. Everyone Else: You all bring up our multiple picks in next year's draft (Detroit's, Orlando's, our own, Milwaukee's) citing a possible Orlando/Chicago situation. Clutch mentioned in another thread that he contacted the Rockets regarding the conditions of the picks owed. Orlando and Detroit do NOT have to hand over their own picks. They can trade for a crap pick, and hand it over to us. Our own pick will likely be in the #10-#13 range (barring a major free agent acquisition which would make it an even worse pick). Milwaukee looks to be much improved over last season, possibly in the #20 range. Orlando and Detroit will without a doubt trade for picks in the low-20's. So, do you plan on cracking into the Top-3 next year with 4 low-20's draft picks? If you can, give me some of what the other team's GM is on. ------------------ "I wanna eat his children." [This message has been edited by thacabbage (edited July 03, 2000).]
I think Gibblets has made some excellent points. Lay off him a little. Besides, he's not nearly as abrasive as I. Specifically I think this is a great point: "Another thing, who knows what was on the table for Pzy?? Who here is the gm for GS that can tell us they would of traded a high lottery pick for Pzy??? Unless you know for a fact that something was on the table that was soo much better than what we did, please stop saying 'we could of, well what if we, maybe this team wanted him, maybe this or that'." There is simply no way to judge if this was a good deal or not before a)knowing what the Rockets are thinking their needs are, b)knowing what offers were on the table for their pick, or c)being able to predict who the Rockets will select with the Bucks' pick, and knowing how Collier and that pick (or whatever deal that pick may be included in) may pan out. Simply put, this trade cannot be evaluated at this point. I've never seen Collier play, but even if I had, predicting how someone's skills will translate to the NBA is not my specialty. I don't consider myself (or anybody on this board) capable of passing judgement on this trade at this point in time. Cabby -- Ok, I'll bite on the "how do we get into the top 3 next year" question. Most importantly, why do we have to get into the top 3? The objective of the trade was that Collier and whomever we end up selecting next year (or any trade between now and then) ends up helping us more than any player on the board at the #9. It doesn't say anything about us being able to trade up into the top 3 next year. As far as the Bucks' pick, there's no way that pick is in the 20's. No way. It was 15th this year. Hell, they did better with the same nucleus the year before. Przybilla is likely no better than Ervin Johnson next year. How the heck are they going to jump 5+ spots in one year...not gonna happen. In fact, it's equally likely that the pick will be lower than 15, than it will be higher. Guys, don't pretend to be offended by Gibblets in an effort to discredit his opinions. There's been far worse spewed on this board than what he's (or she's) said...the only difference is Gibblets makes some good points. Peace! ------------------ I Hate Every Bone in Your Body But Mine
TheFreak: You don't think the Bucks will be much improved over last season? Cassell-Allen will be solid as usual, maybe even better as Allen matures. Tim Thomas will get the starting nod at small forward and looks to emerge as a very good player in this league. I agree that Pryzbilla won't make much of a difference for them this season (Heck, when they drafted Pryz, I was pissed...it's just that when they traded him for Collie I was even more upset.), but they did add Jason Caffey. Now before you laugh at that, note that Jason Caffey is a decent frontcourt option. Glen Robinson will be traded for frontcourt defensive help. One other point, as you yourself always bring up (regarding the Hakeem Rockets), the trio of Allen-Cassell-Thomas is growing together as their chemistry builds. One other point: What makes you think that Rudy will play Collier-Francis pick 'n roll? Don't you remember last season when the fans of the BBS cried for nothing more than a simple, damned pick n roll. "Anything but a post-up play". You can check the archives, if you forgot. We had Hakeem Olajuwon, one of the best shooting big men of all-time, yet when was the last time you saw Rudy involve him in a pick and roll? What makes you think it will be any different with Collier? ------------------ "I wanna eat his children."
cabby -- The Rockets did run a lot of "pick and fade" with KT. That's why KT was always stuck out behind the arc with nothing to do but jack it up. Hopefully Collier can set a stronger pick than KT, and hit a higher percentage out there. I seem to recall quite a few pick and fades with Bullard as well. Oh, and Hakeem can't set a good pick, and doesn't know how to roll either. Not a good finisher either. Not a good pick n roll option, IMO. The Bucks may very well improve, but so will everyone else. I don't see them leap-frogging more than a few spots at best. I don't see any chance of them getting home court in the East. Then, you have to think about the West. I still say the pick is a #18 at worst. Oh, and the Glen Robinson thing....pure speculation! ------------------ I Hate Every Bone in Your Body But Mine
Usually after 80 posts, someone could of planted a seed of doubt in my head. I would be probably swayed to think that Rudy could be right and we could be wrong. After reading it all...I am more sure than ever. We wasted a pick. ------------------ I Want To Thank God For Making Me A Rocketfan
