MJ: "I would never have called up Larry, Magic & say lets get together."

I think the point was that Kobe wouldn't have taken that team to 60+ wins and home court advantage. Kobe didn't win 60+ games with a much better supporting cast this past season, and I think even you can agree that Lebron is a better player in the regular season at least.

 

No he didn't you idiot! He didn't make the big men on his team long and strong enough to bother Dwight Howard. He didn't simultaneously guard every perimeter player on the Magic. Kobe did this in the Finals that year!

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This I don't get. People keep saying that Cleveland management didn't surround LeBron with the right amount of talent. I remember him having Mo Williams, Antawn Jamison, an over the hill but still decent Shaquille O'Neal, an active big man in Anderson Varejao, and them re-signing Zydrunas Ilgauskas.

I mean it's not like Cleveland didn't try. What I'm trying to say is, if there's anyone to blame for LeBron not staying, it shouldn't be Cleveland management. They did what they could, so people should stop pointing fingers at them.

 

Uhh.. use some logic then, guy.

You said it could be an AB situation with DJ stepping into the starting role.. to me that implies that DJ will explode on to the scene as a starter, much like AB did. Is that not the comparison you were making?

Surely you weren't just calling it an AB situation because Felton left via FA and opened up the starting spot for him? Because we both know Rafer was traded to give AB the spot -- he didn't walk in FA. So technically no, DJ isn't in an "AB" situation as far as the team having enough confidence in him to trade their starter. In fact, they promptly went out and had serious discussions with Toronto for Calderon because they wanted a stable PG.

That's like DD comparing Budinger and Kobe's rookie stats, then telling everyone "I wasn't saying he could be the next Kobe, CONTEXT!!!"

Exactly. People act like LeBron took a bunch of 3rd graders deep into the playoffs. The Cavs had a solid team. The Cleveland management did everything they could to bring in talent -- but it's hard when your "leader" won't commit to the vision the Franchise is trying to build around him.

 

That's a nice article, thanks for posting Major.

All this "MJ doesn't need help" talk is ignoring one important fact: didn't MJ retire from the Bulls in 1998 because they were going to let Jackson and Pippen leave? If he was really so great and didn't need great teammates and a great coach, wouldn't he have stuck around for the challenge of winning with a new group?

 

Back in Jordan's day, free agency didn't work the same way. There's no telling what some of these superstar players would have done if they had been on bad teams and had been free to leave for better opportunities.

 

Let's compare: Jordan was 28 years old when he won his first championship in the 90-91 season. So when he retired after the 1997-98 season, he was what, 35 years old? You're trying to compare that with a 25 year old making the same decision? LBJ gave up his CLE quest before Jordan even won his first championship.

Think about that: the greatest player to EVER play this game didn't even win his first championship until he was 28 years old.

LeBron James quit trying to "win one on his own" when he was only 25 years old.

 

Lebron James came into the NBA 3 years earlier than Jordan. Age is deceptive, and you know it.

Lebron has played 7 years.

Michael Jordan played 7 years before his first ring in his 8th...

Your logic is false.

 

So you're saying LeBron gave up on winning one himself a year earlier than Jordan won his first one? Okay, thanks for the fact check -- but it doesn't exactly cripple the argument.

I was responding to the poster who compared MJ retiring at 35 to LBJ jumping ship in the prime of his career at 25. If you have anything relevant to add to that discussion, I'd welcome it. Here's the quote:

And my counter was that Jordan was 35 at the time.. whereas LeBron is a full decade younger.

I am glad to see that you abandoned the AB-DJ comparison though.

 

compare the players u named with gasol, bynum, odom, artest... there is no question which group is better. mo williams and a 34 yr old jamison r the best players hes played with. check mos stats in playoffs.. not good. no one can be depended on on that team. the fact is its lebrons impact that made the cavs good. the bulls won 55 games after jordan retired, lets see how many the cavs win this season.

 

Do you think it is Cleveland management's fault for not bringing in better players?

The Lakers got Odom and to an extent, Gasol, because of their Shaq trade. Bynum came the year Kobe got hurt/the Lakers sucked.. so they landed a top 10 pick. That's just flat out lucky.

What exactly could Cleveland have done differently to surround LBJ with an acceptable supporting cast in your eyes?

 

Make moves to either get under the cap so you don't handicap your franchise with bad contracts or make trades for players on the rise and not their fall. You should never trade for aging players with high contracts and multiple years on them.

 

Maybe gotten Shaq LAST year before the Cleveland got wiped by Howard. Or maybe did AMARE instead of Jamison at this recent deadline.
Still, I thought they already had an "acceptable" supporting cast...you don't win 120+ games in 2 seasons without one. The supporting cast is underrated-they'll make the playoffs this year with a couple of moves. Lebron failed and quit.

 

Make moves to get under the cap? They were trying to win the championship! How the hell are you going to tell LeBron to stay in Cleveland if you make a bunch of salary dumps?

What players did they trade for with high contracts/multiple years? Shaq was an expiring contract.. the only one I can think of is Jamison -- and the only reason they traded for him was to go all-in to win the championship this past year. I'm not really sure how you can blame them for that? Who SHOULD they have traded for that they didn't?

The only criticism I could understand is perhaps them acquiring Jamison over Amare -- but, would Amare really have put them over the top? I'm not sold on the idea.. and they got to keep JJ Hickson, who is their starting PF in the new rebuilding mode Cavs.

 

If he had won a ring in Cleveland, it would have been easier for him to justify leaving. He could have said that he accomplished what he said he would and that he wanted to leave and play on a team with his best friends in the league and have a new challenge.

 

I think the larger point being made by Jordan is that none of the guys he mentioned, himself included, ever opted for the easy way out in their careers.

Lebron, on the other hand, continues to opt for the easy way out in every instance. He refuses to go in the slam dunk contest for fear of losing, he plays less-than-stellar when the series looked bleak against Boston, and he jumped ship to Miami for a chance at a few easy titles.

 

Does a normal roster typically include an All-NBA first team teammate? D-Wade was a second teamer that year, Shaq was first team.

 

Kobe can't trade 2 MVP for another, he's only got one.

 

In 1990, who was the better player: Michael Jordan or Isiah Thomas?

I don't think there's a person alive who would say that Thomas was better than MJ, but he was the one with the two rings and he was still in his prime.

 

Of course you did....when you bring up injuries to role players and act like they had a substantial impact to the final record, then you imply that Robinson isn't as important as he was.

If we're talking about 1997, the most relevant year to check is 1997.

Focus on relevant data next time, please.

No, of course you lose something, but whatever you lose in that exchange is insignificant compared to losing Robinson.

It's actually NOTHING like Yao being out. The Spurs didn't have developing young players who could take advantage of a greater role.

In 2009, McGrady played intermittently during the season before quitting. We won 53 games that season. So I doubt we'd have been a .500 team if we had Yao and lost other guys for chunks of time.