So Bosh can get full max deal from Miami for 2nd rd pick

I was looking for a place to put this. I asked Larry Coon about Chicago coming up with 2 max deal. I'm really proud that I could fit my question in that little space!


bullwinkle1960

@LarryCoon Chi can't sign 2 max guys:sign 1st w space, exceptions gone. no cap space 2 sign 2nd. In trade 4 2nd max, cant end over cap+100K


Larry Coon LarryCoon

@bullwinkle1960 Yes. For example, can sign Bron with space, then do sign-and-trade Deng for Bosh. Legal, yes -- but would TOR do it?

 

Who said that?

Houston can offer the no state income tax. Teams below salary cap can absorb contracts without having to give anything. But if the Raptors are going to sign Bosh (and then trade him) only in order that he can gain more money, maybe they want to get something in return... I guess. This is a reason why some people still defend that the Raptors have something to say in all this.

 

If I were Toronto in that situation, I'd tell Bosh and Miami to go **** themselves. I'd gladly forfeit a potential 2nd round pick if it meant Bosh didn't get an extra $30 M.

Of course, I'm not sure this will work for Miami anyway. If Miami re-signs Wade and gives Lebron a max deal, would they have the cap space available to avoid matching salaries? I don't think so. And if they signed Wade and did a S+T for Bosh, would they have enough room to sign Lebron outright? Again, I don't know but I don't think so.

 

Florida has no state income tax.

 

Yeah but is Toronto going to do this for a 2nd round pick. If they're getting virtually nothing in a deal, then they might as well call Bosh's bluff and see if he'll sign with a team outright and leave that money on the table.

Getting a worthless 2nd rounder is probably worse than Bosh just leaving because of the PR hit. If Bosh just leaves, then he'll be the bad guy but if Toronto takes the 2nd round draft pick then they're the stupid ones.

 

Didn't know that! I thought it was just a Texas privilege.
Alaska, Florida, Nevada, South Dakota, Texas, Washington and Wyoming (I mean, I don't care, at least for now).

 

thats why phoenix, atlanta and toronto have some leverage in their players leaving. Wade and LeBron can sign out right somewhere for less money and make up that money easily in new endorsements (especially if its NY and LeBron) but Bosh, JJ and Amare wont be able to do that so the extra year and 30 million over the life of the contract is a huge amount to them. Their agents know this.

Even though Coangelo said that a trade exception can be valuable how many times has a team just let a TE expire, especially a large one? Its better PR to let Bosh walk if all they are gonna get is a 2nd round or even just a 1st round pick. As you say Bosh will forever remain the enemy

 

Ding ding ding.

It cracks me up, after being one of the only people all year long on this board to believe the Rockets could acquire Bosh in a S&T without surrendering Aaron Brooks, to watch some of these same people act like Toronto would accept anything just to get "something".

$30 million is a lot of money to turn down, and Toronto knows that. That's the one piece of leverage they have. From that point, it becomes a game of poker. If Bosh says he wants to play for Miami, and Miami offers Toronto a second-round pick, I can guarantee Toronto calls Bosh's bluff and tells Bosh/Miami to go **** themselves. The potential reward of holding onto Bosh until you get sufficient trade reward far outweighs the risk of not getting a second-round pick (OH NOES!!!) if he signs outright.

At some point, the risk/reward scale will come into balance to where the risk for Toronto to turn down an opposing offer (and Bosh walk for nothing) is substantial enough for them to pull the trigger. A second-round pick isn't it. Yes, it has been enough in cases like Scottie Pippen and Rashard Lewis. The difference is that those players didn't have anywhere NEAR the volume of suitors that Bosh will have this summer. That helps Toronto's leverage.

 

But Houston can provide global endorsements. Look at Yao.

 

I don't think Coangelo would let Bosh walk. He is a good GM, and wants something back to build new roster. Do you remember at the beginning he said there was a list for Bosh's destination? He has planned this for a long time.

 

Exactly - he's had this planned. Think about this. Would you go through that extent of planning and need a list if your expected return was a second-round pick? If the value were that low, he would let Bosh walk, but the value WON'T be that low. That's the point.

 

You failed to mention that Houston offers a PG who was named most improved player, numerous three point shooters, two potential lottery picks in the next two drafts especially if Bosh and all avoid the Knicks, and a full max deal.

As for the Heat, they have three players under contract. They may be able to do the sign and trade like you mentioned but it would take more then a second round pick. Cleveland has said it wont help Lebron by doing a sign and trade if he wants to leave. Toronto is not going to help Bosh make 30 million more for a pick likely to be in the 50s.

Im not saying Bosh is coming to Houston, but we offer him a little more then you mentioned in your post.

 

Everyone already knew that Miami could just trade a 2nd round pick for Bosh. You don't have to go back to the Pippen example, it's exactly what happened with Rashard Lewis.

The fact that it's legal doesn't mean that it's likely to happen. The Rockets could sign Lebron James for the league minimum, that's perfectly legal too but it's not likely to happen.

The difference this year is that there are additional bidders that weren't there in the past. Look at Rashard for example. Orlando offered him $53M more than the next best offer. What could Seattle do? They could take the 2nd round pick that was offered or they could call his bluff and say no. The problem was that the 2nd best option for Lewis was to just outright sign with Orlando. While he'd be losing out on $30M , it was still $23M better than taking the next best offer from another team (like Houston). Under those conditions Seattle knew that they were going to lose Rashard no matter what they did . So they decided to help out and at least get a 2nd rounder. They had no reason not to take the 2nd rounder since Lewis was going to end up in Orlando either way.

This year that isn't the case. For example, assume Miami is Bosh's first choice. If Miami only offers a 2nd rounder for Bosh, Toronto could easily say no. They could then come back to Bosh and say we have viable sign and trade offers from teams x, y and z. Bosh would then have the choice of leaving $30M on the table and outright sign with Miami or taking the $30M and agreeing to go to his 2nd choice of teams (assuming Miami was first choice). A 2nd round pick is not that much to risk and Toronto can bet that Bosh doesn't like Miami $30 Million dollars better than his next favorite destination.

 

This really shouldn't be new information, TE S&Ts have been around for a while.

Toronto isn't going to play chicken with Bosh - they've made it clear that they're resigned to letting him go via a trade. Cleveland, however, is puffing their chest on the issue.


Toronto's smart enough to know that if they don't at least get a TE they're only shooting themselves in the foot. Their remaining roster is even worse than Cleveland's, and they'll have no tools with which to rebuild. A $17M TE or $13M TE and Beasley gives them a fighting chance. Otherwise, they won't last much longer in Canada.

Miami is currently trying to convince the three to sign for slightly less than the max so all 3 are on the same team (no S&T).

The scenario not being talked about enough is the likely conflict if player X decides to sign with a specific team, wants a S&T to get the full max, but there are one or two "godfather" S&T offers coming from different organizations. Forget spite - this is where players are going to have to decide what really matters to them.

This is also why the Knicks are probably going to wind up huge losers - they have literally no assets to offer beyond the TE. That and their complete inability to field a roster around anyone that signs. When Joe Johnson started giving word that he wanted nothing to do with them....you know they're in for it.

 

We should have kept Roy Rogers and the pick.

 

Let's see.

Toronto could get:

A) Expirings, young players like Llul, Hill, Budinger, Patterson, nice 1st round picks(Knicks)

Or

B) 2nd round pick, a chance to take someone else's overpaid contract off their hands with the big TE.

 

Miami can give Raptors Beasley right?

 

^^^No one wants Beasley. If they could've moved him, I'm sure he would've been moved by now.