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Letting The Airs Out...MJ, VC, & Misconceptions...

Discussion in 'NBA Dish' started by MacBeth, Aug 24, 2002.

  1. MacBeth

    MacBeth Member

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    Fame, as we all know second-hand, can be a very fickle thing. One day they love you, the next they long to see you fail. But I have rarely seen this principle demonstrated more drastically than in the case of Vince Carter. Despite being very early into an already remarkable career, Air Canada has seen both sides of the fame game, having been lauded as the only true successor to You-Know-Who, and then suffering through an injury-plagued year which cost him many minutes, but even more of his reputation. On the other hand, Michael Jordan basks in the warmth of the media-fed fire of hero worship, described as the ultimate winner, and seemingly beyond reproach.

    Whether or not Jordan has earned this status is the subject of another debate, and one I feel strongly about, but let us assume, for the sake of argument, that Jordan's rep is well earned, and use his career as a comparative standard when evaluating Vince Carter, and the antipathy many feel towards him at this time...

    When people use knee jerk reactions to formulate opinions, they are subject to gross miscalculations, and often engage in revisionist history to defend their stance. This is true with regards to both Jordan and Carter, in reverse proportion. When people compare the two, they often do Carter the disservice of comparing an athlete in his 4th year, one of which was cut short by a season-ending injury, to Michael Jordan's entire career. Additionally, they do this while turning a blind eye to the facts of Jordan's early career, instead buying into the idea that what was true of him in his prime must have always been so, and this is false...Let's review these two...

    IMMEDIATE IMPACT ON TEAM

    Michael Jordan is justifiably praised for single-handedly turning the Chicago Bulls from a pretty awful team into a playoff team. The team he came to was in fact, pretty bad, having won only 27 of 82 games the previous season for a winning % of .329. In his first year they showed remarkable improvement, winning 38 games, winning .463 of their games, for a winning % improvement of .134. Jordan was the runaway winner of the Rookie of the Year.

    Vince Carter came to a team in absolute turmoil, fresh of the defection of it's architect, Isiah Thomas, the departure upon demand of it's franchise player, Damon Stoudamire, and the trade of it's only other marquee name, Marcus Camby. The year before Carter's joining them, the Raptors had absolutely stunk, winning only 16 of 82 games, for a winning % of .195. The very next year, Carter's rookie campaign, Toronto improved to a winning % of .460, an improvement of a remarkable .265. Carter was the runaway winner of the Rookie of the Year.

    Clearly both had a positive impact on their team, but also clearly Carter's team improved significantly more than Jordan's in their respective rookie campaigns.



    SCORING BY THE NUMBERS

    In Michael Jordan's 1st 4 years he averaged 28.2, 22.7, 37.1, and 35.0 points per game per season, with the second being notable for it being limited to only 18 games due to injury. In Carter's 1st 4 years he averaged 18.3, 25.7, 27.6, and 24.7 ppg each. On the surface it would seem that Jordan clearly was a better scorer than Carter, averaging almost 7 more points per game ( 31.8 vs. 25.0). However, this perception doesn't really hold up upon further review. Allow me to explain...

    In their 1st 4 years, due to injury and labour dispute, Carter and Jordan played roughly the same number of games, with Jordan playing a total of 264 games, and Carter 267. What is remarkable is that, despite the fact that Carter played 3 more games during this period, Jordan took an astounding 825 more shots! Their totals were 6, 250 fga's for Jordan and 5,425 fga's for Carter. When you account for the fact that they each averaged roughly 66 games/year, that means that Jordan averaged above 3 shots per game more than Carter.

    And this only accounts for fga's unaffected by fouls...During the same 4 year span the now infamous Jordan Rules helped lead Jordan to the free throw stripe 2, 703 times, as opposed to only 1, 628 times for Carter. Pro-rated, this means that Jordan averaged in excess of 4 more ft's a game than Carter did.

    Given that Jordan shot ft's at roughly 85% during his 1st 4 years, that accounts for about 2, 297 points. During that 4 year span he compiled 8, 630 pts in total, meaning that he accumulated 6, 333 points on field goals alone. Considering the fact that he took 6, 250 fgs in that stretch, Michael Jordan scored 1.0131 points for every fg he took.In other words, he basically scores 1pt for every fga.( Although a little less, Carter too averages about 1pt/fga).

    Thefore, based on the fact that Jordan took more than 3 shots and 4 free throws more than Carter every game, pro-rated over their likelihood of success, Jordan SHOULD have scored 7 more points/game based on the amount of shots he took. In other words, given either of their rates of sucess at fgs and fts, had Carter taken the same number of shots and fts as Jordan he would have scored almost exactly the same as Jordan did.

    Now this isn't conclusive, as there is something to be said for being able to get to the ft line, and it can be argued that Carter might not have sustained the same %s had he taken more shots. Conversely, it can also be argued that Jordan's astronomical free throw numbers were a reflection of the Jordan Rules, which made guarding him a much more difficult task, and that defenders on Carter would be a lot more aggressive than they ever would against the ref-protected MJ. It can also be argued that great player's %'s actually go up the more shots they take, as Jordan himself maintains, due to practice and confidence increases.

    Either way, a closer look at the numbers reveals that the disparity, if their is one, is minimal. And it must also be noted that Jordan's 1st 4 years were during a time of very high league-wide scoring, with Showtime, the run- and- gun Nuggets,etc. while Carter's 1st 4 years were during a time when scoring was so low that rule changes have been adopted to increase scoring.


    TOUGHNESS & DURABILITY

    In his 1st 4 seasons Michael Jordan missed 64 games due to injuries, whereas Vince Carter missed 29. Both had injuries that required surgery, the difference being that Jordan was shut down as soon as he was hurt, whereas Carter tried in vain to play through the bad knee, and played very poorly, before ending his season and going under the knife. Both began their careers as primarily driver/dunkers, but Jordan gradually developed his mid-to-outside shot to the point that it became his primary asset, and he rarely goes to the hoop anymore. Carter's outside shooting progressed much more rapidly than Jordan's, and he would go through stretches where he seemed to rely on it too much. That being said, it must also be noted that;

    A) His seeming affection for the outside might very well be the result of his desire to develop his all-around offense quickly, and overcome his early label as merely a high-flyer.

    B) There is no comparison between the two with regards to the protection they received from the refs, and getting pounded night after night when driving to the hole seems a lot more appealing when you get the calls.


    DEFENSE


    While it could and probably should be argued that the Jordan Rules applied as much to his defense as his offense, as he routinely played very aggressive, hands-on defense yet was rarely in foul trouble, their can be little doubt that Jordan exhibited much more consistent effort on the defensive end than Carter has thus far. Their physical abilites in this field are similar, making Carter's occassional laissez-faire attitude all the more frustrating. He has shown marked improvement (when healthy) each and every year, it must be noted.


    WINNING

    This is the area of the greatest misconception when it comes to Carter and Jordan. Many fans, especially those who didn't witness Jordan's early years in person have taken his later winning ways and applied them post-facto to his entire career. They have forgotten that Jordan's early reputation was much worse than Carter's is now...he was seen as a very talented ball-hog who would never win because he was only interested in his own numbers...much like Iverson has often been described. In fact, he was seen by his fellow players as such a selfish player that they infamously tried to shut him out of an All-Star game by never passing him the ball. In his first playoffs Jordan's Bulls lost in 4 in the 1st round, then were swept in the 1st round in the next 2 years before reaching the 2nd round in his 4th year to lose in 5.

    Compare this with Carter whose team didn't make the playoffs his 1st year (despite having virtually the same winning % as Jordan's rookie year Bulls), was swept in the 1st round his second year, and came within one missed shot of making it to the Eastern Conference Finals in his 3rd. At the time of his injury during his 4th year the Raptors were within 3 games of 1st place in the Eastern Conference.

    If you look at the facts about each of their 1st 4 seasons, there is no comparison. Despite not making the playoffs in one year and missing another due to injury, Carter actually won one more playoff game than Jordan did in 4 playoff rounds. Which one would, were they playing at the same time, would deserve the reputation as a can't win when it counts player?

    So the next time you hear someone claim that, based on one injury plagued second half of a year, when he struggled trying to ill-advisedly play while hobbled, Vince Carter has shown that he is not the Next One, remember that Jordan didn't even reach the ECF's until his 5th season, and didn't win the big one until his 7th, and he had a little more help to do that (Pippen, Grant, etc.) than Carter has now...Give the same time that Jordan had and we'll see..I doubt if he'll win 6 rings, but he might win a few before he's done,especially if he gets a supporting cast and great coach.
     
    #1 MacBeth, Aug 24, 2002
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2002
  2. Drexlerfan22

    Drexlerfan22 Member

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  3. too_good

    too_good Member

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    Much like the real MacBeth in Shakespeare, this MacBeth also suffers a downfall, but this one of disillusionment.

    Firstly, I'm disappointed that after a very eloquant introduction Mcbeth uses team improvements as a category to judge the two players. Someone might want to tell him that the Raptors also added Charles Oakley and Kevin Willis. Not to mention a better T-Mac. Although Carter was key to the Raps improvement its very irresponsible to use this as an arguement for comparing him with Jordan, who had essentially the same team prior to joining the nba.

    Secondly, I have a three letter word to respond to his major point differential in regards to Jordan/Carter-------- LOL. The fact that Jordan avg. 7 more points then carter would result even the most dimwitted individual to know that Jordan must have taken more shots. The same logic can be used to compare Yogi Stewart's rookie year avg. of 4.6 pts/game with Wilt Champerlains 50+ pts season. Yogi's fg % of .48 is very close to that of Wilt's, therefore using Mbbeth's thinking, had Yogi taken the same amount of shots, he would have scored similar stats to Wilt's. Furthermore, looking at free throws, Yogi had a much better ft% then Wilt's, thus if Yogi had gone to the line as often as Wilt, he would have even a better avg. then Wilt's. There is a very simple rule to the nba, great players shoot the ball alot. The fact that Carter did not shoot as much as Jordan, is squarly Carter's responsibility. Not MJ's.

    As to his third arguement, one might look at what he wrote and come to the conclusion that the decision Carter made to play through his injury might have been a sign of toughness, but as well as arrogance and selfishness. The fact that Vince's poor play was clearly hurting the team should have been an early sign for him to get the knee surgery. Vince hurting the team seems to be a fair statment to make considering the teams performance after his departure for the surgery. Also, as in the case with Grant Hill, Vince could have caused his injury to get exponentially times greater. Considering, the Raptors had an 84 million doller investment in him, an objective observor can deduce that it was a selfish move to play while hurt.

    Fourthly, the statement that the "jordan rules" helped his defense as much as his offense, seems at first to follow the pattern of ridiculous arguments McBeth has already made. But looking more carefully at it, one can see an obvious contradiction. If the jordan rules helped his offense, that means rules for guarding a player must have been very strict. Having said that, how can he say that the rules helped Jordan's defense? This perhaps is a question that not even the witches in MacBeth could answer.

    Now the question of playoff performance McBeth does raise legitimate points. However, any fan of the NBA will know that there is just a little bit of a difference between the Eastern Conf. that Jordan played in during his first four years and the one that Carter has played in. Now this might just be the most underated statment ever made using the English language. Can anyone in their right mind compare the Boston Celtics of the 80's, which included players like Larry Bird, to the teams that Carter has lost to in the playoffs!!!!

    Having said all that, I would suggest that the time of the Carter/Jordan comparisons are over. Personally, I think Carter will be his own player. The question of who will be the next MJ can best be answered to the question asked decades ago; Who will be the next Chamberlain? the answer to that was answered by Shaq. An answer that took more then 20 years to answer.
     
  4. OverRRated

    OverRRated Member

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    Well written, but many times you have to look outside the numbers.
    Main critism against Carter isn't his ability...except on defense....but his willingness to do what Kobe does in the 4th quarter.
    Meaning, give me the ball and let me get to work.


    Just my opinion, but it's really unfair to compare the eastern conference of Jordan's early days to the current one.
     
  5. MacBeth

    MacBeth Member

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    #5 MacBeth, Aug 25, 2002
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2002
  6. MacBeth

    MacBeth Member

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    The Kobe/Vince thing is an entrirely different argument, but allow me to say this...

    1) Vince has made a greater % of his game winning shots than Kobe has, and, in fact, one of his nicknames in Toronto has been 4th Quarter Carter.

    2) Being Kobe, and having the attention Shaq gets, thereby assuring you of single coverage, is nothing like being by far the best player on your team, and facing constant double coverage, especially in crunch time.

    3) The problem with Carter ISN'T ability..he often plays fantastic defense, smothering his opponent...it's that he only does this in spurts, while guys like Jordan and Kobe do it consistently...
     
    #6 MacBeth, Aug 25, 2002
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2002
  7. Drexlerfan22

    Drexlerfan22 Member

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    God, help me, I could start a similar thread to this one about the whole Wilt/Shaq thing. There are similarities, but I don't think Shaq is good enough to be the next coming of the great Chamberlain.

    On the other hand, Kobe and Vince look like they might be knocking on Jordan's door a few years down the line, even though they're not there yet.

    Anyway, I'd take Oscar over Jordan any day of the week.
     
  8. LiLStevie3

    LiLStevie3 Member

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    Very nice for a first post too_good. Just to add to the winning % argument, not only did Toronto get better around Carter in his first year, but also the Eastern Conference in the mid 80's was exponentially better than the Leastern Conference from the late 90's to present.

    Another thing, I thought the Jordan rules weren't really a factor in his first several years in the league. They were more of a factor after he was more established.
     
  9. MacBeth

    MacBeth Member

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    1) I agree about the Conferences, but Carter's team still improved TWICE AS MUCH as Jordan's in their repsective 1st years.

    2) It got worse, I agree, but the incredible number of ft's Jordan took early on demonstrate that they were already well underway...
     
  10. LTBALLA6219

    LTBALLA6219 Member

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    Nice post mac but better reply too_good.....beth seems biased towards carter. Is it safe to say the Jordan rules didn't exist in his first 4 years? I swear I thought they were invented later. It is still too early to compare MJ to anyone. MJ=(arguably) GOAT VC=just potential to be goat

    IMO Vince won't get anywhere near what Jordan was/is. Players like MJ are few and far between. Vince may have comparable athletic ability but lacks the determination and compettetive drive MJ has. Which isn't bad because very few do.
     
  11. heypartner

    heypartner Member

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    MacBeth,

    Go frigging delete that long quote of too_good that you have sitting there with no reply.

    NO REPLY to a long quote. damn man.

    This server is going to croak this year for stuff like that.
     
  12. heypartner

    heypartner Member

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    MacBeth and too_good are the same person...

    sorry, man. I'm reporting you for banning.
     
  13. MacBeth

    MacBeth Member

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    I did reply...Within the quote..My replies have *** around them.
     
  14. MacBeth

    MacBeth Member

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    A)'No, I am not too-good.

    B) I am JAG, heyp, don't you remember me?

    C) This banning thing is getting ridiculous...
     
  15. Kurtz

    Kurtz Member

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    They can't be the same person, Mcbeth can actually spell...
     
  16. heypartner

    heypartner Member

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    Funny, too_good must be sitting right next to you then. You forget; I run the hardware for the server.

    you are

    66.185.84.79.

    he is

    66.185.85.79.

    Which coincidentally is a "BTM" address, a Banned Toronto Member...BTM...hmmmm

    Who is too_good, again? Why does he respond to your post so fast, and in your fashion?? And share nearly an identical Rogers address that BTM shared??

    HMMMMMM

    So, yeah, maybe on a cable modem or DSL you might use numbers that someone else did at one time. But you know: I have 10,000 posts, and live in the Rockets home town, and use RoadRunner, and no one has ever made a post with an IP address identical to mine, and I've had probably more IP addresses used than anyone here.
    You say that, like you got banned before. Ain't that right BTM. This bi-uid thing is getting ridiculous.
     
  17. too_good

    too_good Member

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    I posted my message aroung 4:00 am. I suppose I cared more about the content then the spelling.
     
  18. too_good

    too_good Member

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    lol i mean around.
     
  19. heypartner

    heypartner Member

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    I predict too_good will become another Banned Toronto Member.... Aint' that right BTM?
     
  20. Manny Ramirez

    Manny Ramirez The Music Man

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    Whoa, whoa, here.

    Am I reading this right or is BTM and JAG the same person??

    Are both of them banned??

    If they are not the same person, then why did they get banned if that happened.

    Damn, I need to read all the forums more closely next time.:(
     

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