Ignoring Deke for a second, remind me how all these "great" defenders are doing these days after they left the Rockets?
You do realize that Adelman's Blazers teams were consistently top 5-10 defenses, right? You do realize that Adelman's Kings teams were consistently top 5-10 before Webber's injury, right? I was talking about defensive efficiency, not points allowed. There's a reason why did not use the latter. Adelman has more top defenses than JVG. He also has more top defenses while not playing at a snail pace. So please don't talk about stuff you have no clue about. You're saying that an "okay" defensive big can anchor some of the best defenses in the NBA. Uh huh. Are you sure you know basketball? And your point is? You said Yao's mediocre because Boozer schooled him. I simply took that logic and applied to Hakeem and Kemp/Sonics. I fail to see what these other teams has anything to do with the argument. Hakeem would've been a footnote in NBA history had the Rockets faced the Sonics every year in the playoffs during his peak.
I said this before and I will say it again... You can not say anything bad about the GREAT GOD YAO to YOF's.... You took this ENTIRE Discussion and twisted it around.... Hakeem, probably the best center that Houston has ever had, also had his down falls... 1) Hakeem was not a great passer.. 2) He had a hard time picking some defenses.. This was evident when they played against Seattle... It is what it is... Now even the old timers (99r's) want try to argue that debate to the ground... Because the mere fact is that it's true. Now when ever anyone says anything remotely negative about the GREAT GOD YAO even when it's true the YOF's go into a fit... Fact 1 - is Yao is slow... So there are some Centers that Yao will match up well against... Fact 2 - Deke was a better defender.. pure and simple... Deke was a better defender at the age of 40 than most centers will be there entire career.. Fact 3 - JVG always had a good defensive team... That's his strength so that's what he pays more attention to... JVG is the Buddy Ryan of Basketball. Not only did you get away from the discussion, you tried to put words in my mouth.... So as I stated before I will say it again... You are Right YAO is the best center to have ever played in the NBA... He's also the best Center that the Rockets have ever had.....
leeb, if you concede that Yao is a good defender, then I have nothing to argue with you. I am not disputing the fact that Mutombo was a good defensive backup. My beef is with T-Man's claim that we were a great defensive team BECAUSE OF DEKE, as if Deke was more important than Yao in making us a great defensive team. That is BS. Yao, even with all his injuries played about 6.5 times more than Mutombo under Adelman's coaching as a top defensive team. It's a luxury to have Deke as our backup center. But why that luxury became the main thing of our defense in some people's mind is just baffling. My original comment was that Yao's defensive impact was underrated by some people because he looks slow. T-Man kept saying that Yao was "abused" by most of the big men in the league. That is clearly a subjective judgment without substantiation. Yao might not be a great one-on-one defender. But his DEFENSIVE IMPACT is top notch. Isn't that what counts at the end of the day, that the guy's presence makes it very hard for the opponent to score?
I don't know why it is so difficult for you to understand. You divide the total minutes over 82 games to see how much is a player's presence FOR THE SEASON. When we say that the Rockets were #2 and #3 defensive team in the 2007-2008 and 2008-2009 seasons, we are talking about the ENTIRE SEASONS, not just some games here and there. Now if you can show me that the small portion of time that Deke was in the game was so good defensively that it actually pull a whole season average from a mediocre standard to a great standard, then I'd say you were right. I don't think you can, even without looking at the actually split of Deke vs. Yao. How could a player who was on the floor about 5% of the time make such a great impact? See my reply to leebigez. I do not disgree that Deke was a great defensive backup. He was the reason why we did not drop off when Yao was out. But he was not the REASON why we were a great defensive team. Yao was. You are grossly underrating Yao's defensive presence. BTW, please don't call me YOF. I was called a TOF by the Yao people when I was defending McGrady during those years.
Let me do a replay for you.... I did a bold for you on the first Quote.... Yao is an OK defender.. Said it an earlier post Deke was a great defender even at the age of 45.... Now the reason the Rockets were such a great defensive team was because of 2 things, especially in the JVG era... 1) Team Defense (That's what JVG focused on) 2) Hoosier ball... (A slow it down, grind it out basketball game) Stated this earlier... JVG was the Buddy Ryan of basketball.. He knows defense, but is crap on offense. Now the statement that started all of this in BOLD.... The reason why we dropped is because there was no Deke, no back-up to cover up for Yao being gone. In the years above when Yao got hurt and missed many games Deke was there and the reason there wasn't a drop is due to the fact that Deke was a better defensive player. Now if you look at the statement bu Juicy, you will see that I totally agreed with what he stated... Yao is big and he's a space eater who works very hard to do the right things.... But his biggest dis-advantage is quickness. Now you and meh wanted to take it to another level because I stated Deke, which in reality is true.... With Yao missing as many games as he did in the past, Deke had to play more than 1.8 minutes a game.
This is what I don't agree with you. All the other stuff you said is irrelevant. Why does having a great defender as your backup make you an OK defender? The thread is about Yao and Zo. You brought in Mutombo as if that could somehow prove that Yao was just an OK defender. In fact, it's the opposite. If you need an elite defender as your backup to keep the defense from dropping off to much, that means you and your backup are on similarly high level. If instead we had an OK defender in place of Yao this season and kept at an elite defensive level, then you might have a point that what made us a great defensive team was not because of Yao. You keep skating around the fact that 2008-2009 was under Adelman, not the Buddy Ryan of basketball, and Yao played about 27 times more than Mutombo in that season.
Ok... Easy, basically we will agree to disagree... I don't think Yao is a Great Defender.. He's an OK Defender.. Yao is just as big as Mark Eaton was and they are primarily same... Eaton was big but slow.. The same as Yao, but I think Mark Eaton was a better defender. Now on the other hand, Yao was a far better offensive player than Eaton or Deke. Now, as I stated earlier I totally agree with juicystream statements and I highlighted it.... AB is an OK defender and he starts, but Lowry is a better defender... On the flip side AB is better on offense..... It is what it is..
Dont know who said it, i think it was meh about the backup center. If the rox had dj mbenga at center playing 25 mins per night, their defense wouldve been alot better. I said the rox shouldve gotten him 2 yrs ago for the vets minimum and wouldnt have been a need to bring deke back. I also thought turiaf for 4m wouldve been a great investement because he's big enough to play the 5 and quick enough to play the 4, but the team was being cheap as always. The lack of a true backup to yao shouldve been addressed years ago, but was ignored.There is no way in hell chuck hayes,a situational player,should been playing that much. Zo missed an entire season and they slid brian grant over and still maintained a top 5 defense. Why? They still had their philosophy and still had a guy capable of playing center.
Actually, I agree with juicystream's take too. What I am trying to say is, you only look at a player's man defense as the standard. Why do you not consider team defense an equally important quality of being a good defensive player? The goal of defense is not just to stop the guy you guard, but to stop the opposing TEAM. Focusing on man defense only is like focusing on individual scoring only on offense. Some players are finishers, and some are playmakers. Both kinds are important. If you are a PG, playmaking is at least as important as scoring. On defense, if you are a center, being able to guard the paint is at least as important as guarding your man. That's why I have been emphasizing defensive IMPACT. I agree that Yao's defensive impact is about the level of Eaton. Deke in his prime was a notch higher than Yao and Eaton. All these big men are extremely important for their team's defense no matter what perimeter defensive players they have. I think we both can agree that Hayes while a terrific post defender is nowhere near the overall impact of Yao, or else we wouldn't have dropped off so much on defense this year.
WOW!!!!! I just stated let's agree to disagree.. but yet you still want to drag it on... What part don't you get that we didn't have Deke this year without Yao.... If we would have had an average defense center say like Camby.. Wew would have been in the playoffs this year.. Yao is an OK defender... For you to say that you are not a YOF you sure as HELL act like one.
Yao has never been on the same defensive impact as Eaton... Just as Eaton was never on the same offensive impact as Yao...
The Rockets have had the #2 and #4 defense the past two years. How do you get "a lot" better from there? They go up to ranking -12!?
Durvasa and I had this discussion last year about the rockets defense. Of course durvasa provided the stats and we both agreed. Last year when adelman decided to play landry vs deke when yao went to the bench, the defense sucked. The fg% close was high and the conversion rate of general fg's was high. The reason was they had no one who could challenge at the rim. What always gets lost in stats are the actual plays on the court. Its easier to snuff out the weaker lesser teams and all good teams do it, but how do you do against good teams. When teams play the rox in the playoffs they can always get a good shot by putting yao in the pick and roll away from the basket. Whe yao isn't in the game, its a layup drill no matter how many charges they try to take. I never said they would be better, but they could maintain defensive integrity with yao out if they had camby,mbenga and a few other who can contest a shot at the rim. If you don't think there is a differnce between driving to the rim and seeing a guy like mbenga vs a guy like hayes, then i don't know what to say. I'm not saying one of those guys would have kept the rockets opps fg% much lower than anyone the rockets had at the 5 this year.
---------------------------------------------------------------- don't lie to us and don't lie to urself. u chose Zo simply becuz u hate Yao. u woulda picked Kwame Brown over Yao anyday of the week ...
If I hated yao, I wouldn't even reply to anything said about him. I like him as a player, I just think the time has come to move on not related to this thread. You probably pick yao because you your a fanboy and not for merits on the court. I have no problem with posters picking yao and I think yao v zo is a good comparison. Now if i said yao vs deke or yao vs kwame brown and pick those other guys, then you could call me a hater.
