I wouldn't set up curricula or courses dedicated to the study of a particular race. It promotes racial identity ("I'm black and I'm proud") when race should be irrelevant to one's self identity. No one ever says they are proud to be blond or tall, and they don't identify with other blonds or tall people in the same way racial groups do. These ethnocentric academic programs exacerbate the problem. A course on the impact of racial identity on culture would be different, but it would fall under sociology or anthropology or even psychology.
http://stuffwhitepeoplelike.com/2008/05/28/101-being-offended/ http://stuffwhitepeoplelike.com/2008/01/23/20-being-an-expert-on-your-culture/ http://stuffwhitepeoplelike.com/2008/01/21/14-having-black-friends/ http://stuffwhitepeoplelike.com/2008/11/18/116-black-music-that-black-people-dont-listen-to-anymore/
With all do respect, this is some of the dumbest ***** that I've read in my life. Don't be black and proud. Be dark skinned and indifferent.
Race should be irrelevant? Maybe if you're white. I could understand being proud of being Irish, Scottish, Swedish, or whatever, but not just being white. However to be a minority or black there is much to be proud of. That is true because collectively in the US blacks overcame oppression, prejudice, discrimination, etc. to make remarkable contributions. There is nothing wrong with being proud of that, and teaching those facts. Because facts should be taught. To try and omit facts, or diminish the role race played in the development of culture and contributions to society is cheating students of the best possible education.
Dimish race? Let me guess, you are white? Do you realize how many slippery slopes are involved in that? I can't even keep track of how many ways this can go wrong. Just for beginners, go read the thread about Mohamed cartoon day. I understand the originator's motivation. But it quickly turned into an excuse for hate mongering to the point the originator herself disassociated herself from it. Despite, the 'event' will likely now go on without her. The genie is out of the bottle and it can't be stopped. Any proposition you may have to "diminish race", however well intentioned, will inevitably head into a quiagmire of badness. History is full of examples of people trying similiar things and most end with ethnic cleansing. Any such proposition involes picking the new dominate culture. So how about you give up what you know and we all adopt, say, Mexican American lifestyle? How's that sound to you?
You're advocating balkanization and racial solidarity, I'm advocating a melting pot. If a culture has nothing to offer besides the ethnicity it derives from, I'm all for it withering away. But there are many aspects of Mexican culture that have integrated with American culture, or already shared a commonality to begin with. This fear that if you don't keep people balkanized within their own racial identities, they will lose their culture, is dubious. Poles and Italians and Irish thought the same thing when they came to America. Now that kind of thinking seems archaic, but it still exists among certain individuals that try to find value and purpose in something as superficial as their ethnicity. Your ethnicity might define where you came from, but it doesn't define who you are or what you can be. Unless you choose to let it. I'm descended from Polish and Russian people, but I could care less. I have no interest in genealogy other than perhaps idle curiosity. Polish American history does not interest me at all, and I have no desire to join a Polish American society. I refuse to be defined by the disposition I was born in to. Our schools certainly shouldn't be promoting it. I remember when Tony Dungy was asked how he felt about being the first black coach to win a Super Bowl. He said he was more proud of being a Christian coach than a black coach. He would rather be known for the faith he chooses to follow than something as superficial as skin tone. <object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/ryBtdEfgvpI&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/ryBtdEfgvpI&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>
So faith as part of identity isn't Balkanization? I recommend reading up on where that term came from. For that matter consider that one can change their faith while they can't their skin tone (at least not easily) so I don't think you can say that skin tone is superficial while faith isn't. Anyway the problem with the view that you and Basso are advancing is the superiority of amelting pot when in truth America has never been an actual melting pot. The fact we still celebrate things like St. Patrick's Day and Oktober Fest (besides just an excuse to drink) is the persistence of ethnic cultural identity even among European immigrants, the ones who are supposed to be the most melted, in America. American culture isn't some sort of velveeta mix where everyone is subsumed into a single culture but more like a lumpy pancake batter with globs that are only partially dissolved. Trying to treat it though as a smooth mix is going to be as problematic as trying to cook with lumpy pancake batter. You can't just ignore the globs by saying that everything is the same.
I'm not advocating it ...just the opposite. I'm creating an example how racial solidarity or "melting pot" is a false an unacheivable goal and anybody that has ever tried to implement such a thing leads to an inevitable conclusion that really bad things will happen to some people. You can try to rationalize how things "should" be but let us know when you want to join the rest of us in reality. When you are ready to discuss facts, I could probably give you 100 examples of things gone horribly wrong for every 5 examples you give of something with a good result. No matter how well intentioned YOU are, human nature will lead down the path of people doing nasty things to each other ...if you are advocating the minimilzation of race/culture. The ONLY solution is open dialogue where people can discuss their differences ...not pretend like differences don't exist.
(I'm speaking out loud here so if I say something offensive, please don't attack me with an axe.) But what does being black have to do with it? Shouldn't we celebrate overcoming oppression, prejudice, discrimination, etc, regardless of race? Would we be any less or more proud if a different race of people went through that in America? The race of the people which went through it is inconsequential I think. If they were East Asians or Arabs, it would be just as much a source of pride, wouldnt it? I do completely agree that the specific group of people who actually went through slavery and those who felt the effects of it should be praised. They should be praised for the success achieved as a group of people, regardless of skin color. But the color of their skin was inconsequential to them doing it. It was their courage and mental strength that did it. Their courage and mental strength did not come from the color of their skin. Our brains and our hearts don't have a race. Proud to be from somewhere? What does that mean? You're proud that for some statistical reason, you were born of a certain race, in a certain place at a certain time? Pride is for achievements. The achievement, in the case of slavery in America, is overcoming the odds and fighting out of the slavery. It has NOTHING to do with being African. The slaves brought to America had as much in common with each other as French people and Iranian people. Just skin color. The thing that made them awesome as a collective group is their achievement. They just happened to have darker skin. I really hope that's not offensive in any way. I actually mean to place the exact same pride/celebration in the correct place. I'm not sure that it's fair to discredit the actual hearts and minds who achieved something, in favor of the color of their skin, which had no bearing on their own actions or achievements IMO.
Human personality is a VERY complex thing. I can demonstrate that race impacts EVERY interpersonal interaction you have with other people, however minor. Your personality is partly formed by your experiences and partly genetic. Since your race formed how you respond to other people (and how they respond to you) then you cannot conclude one's courage and mental strength (aka personality traits) have no baring on one's race. One's race in a fundamental human condition. Arguing that one's race doesn't impact one's personalit would be like saying if you were born with one leg, you'd be exactly the same person you are today.
I kind of agree that if it was East Asians that were enslaved in mass for centuries, oppressed, denied the right to vote, denied an equal education because of the fact that they were Eastern Asians, and yet they made huge contributions to the culture and way of life in a nation, struggled, and overcame the adversity, there would be much to be proud of there too. It just so happens that the whites who controlled the society(while certainly being bigoted against other groups) grouped blacks together for a longer period of time, were more oppressive on the whole to them, and attempted to deny them any kind of their own culture. So for someone to say I'm black and I'm proud makes perfect sense. It's saying despite the fact that those that are in power tried to make it seem like unique aspects or any aspects of that culture were worthless, I disagree. In the context of overcoming slavery in the US does have to do with having African roots, because the whites in control decided Africans should be treated that way. Blacks who accomplished some of the achievements celebrated had to work many times to accomplish that as a white counterpart would. Yet still they reached those accomplishments. That's something to be proud of. The reason they had to work harder was because of African roots. You are wrong to say that the slaves brought to the US had as much in common with each other as French and Persians. They didn't all speak the same language, but their language had a similar structure, and they shared plenty of the same customs. If some crooked boxing promoters tied one arm behind the back of all Latino fighters, and they still somehow found ways to beat the best boxers in the game, I think Latinos would be proud, because the group in charge singled them out and tried to hold them down, and they overcame that. True they didn't have special genes that allowed them to fight one handed, but as a group they were held down, and as a group(that the power structure designed and gave the label to) they overcame. The fact that they had the talent to win wasn't because they were Latino, but the fact that they had to face such incredible odds to win was because they were Latino.
I'm sorry to interrupt this celebration of salad-tossing...but how much did the former soviet union or yugoslavia do to try to repress, rather than accentuate different cultures? Pretty much everything....not unlike, say, forbidding ethnic studies (or at least making a scrubbed, propagandized version of it into dogma). So, basically, you are down with this technique, right? Forbid rather than "accentuate". Very, very, very surprising that you and stormfront would find common ground on this. Very surprising. Does your wife know this? Or do you keep secret internet Shock-Jock basso a carefully guarded secret! Is that why you're always posting at 7 AM?
Thanks that's interesting. But still, missing a leg is a disadvantage in achieving a lot of your goals probably. Being African, while contributing to your WAY of thinking, would not make you any less capable of achieving the objective. It made them objective more difficult - but that's not something to be celebrated, right? We should purely be proud of the achievement of each and every individual that was part of that struggle, and celebrate the group. I see a correlation between those difficulty of the achievement and skin color. But as long as you celebrate the achievement accurately, the skin color doesn't matter. If this was so long ago and we just so happened to not know the skin color - would that make it more or less of an achievement? I agree too. I'm just wondering if we should be celebrating the incredible odds or just plain and simple, celebrate the awesome achievement for its level of difficulty. I think I'm on the same wavelength as you guys, I'm just wondering if being proud that they were African takes away from the achievements. Would they be incapable of doing it if they weren't? Are we focusing on the right things? IMO, there is no difference. Slaves would be treated as slaves. I can't see that Arabs would have been treated better for example. I think the group who went through it were able to get there because of mind and heart. Just like they are not any less capable because of skin color, I think they are not any more capable because of it either. They were capable because they were excellent people. Feel free to tell me I'm talking out of my ass. I'm just discussing underdeveloped ideas that are in my head.
I just had to quote this, Sishir, because I loved the analogy. Where's the maple syrup?? I'll be sure to ask some of the blonde Scandinavians I've known over the years whether they are proud to be Swedish, or Norwegian, or Danish, or an Icelander. I'm sure none of them are proud of their heritage. Surely, that applies to those immigrants that live in the States who are from those countries. If you go to Minnesota or Wisconsin, no doubt it is damned near impossible to discern that many of the folks living there are descended from immigrants who came from Scandinavia. Right?
It may not matter to you ...but it matters to them. ...and frankly, that's all that's really important. It's like I've said a million times regarding being PC. It isn't hard. If you want to know if something is offensive, then ask the offended person. If they say they are offended then YOUR opinion about whether they should be offended is irrelevant. If somebody punches you in the face and they said they didn't hit you hard so don't worry about it ...is that a valid argument? No. The only person that knows if it hurt is the person that got hit. So your mental exercise to try to remove race as a factor may or may not have some validity in certain contexts. However, in the context where actual real people are involved, it is functionally impossible to seperate race out as it pertains to the real world. So you may not think race is important from a 'scientific' viewpoint ...but humanity is constantly throwing curveballs at science.
Don't forget about the other side of that. Lovie Smith becomes first African-American coach to lose a Super Bowl
Wow, Wes puttin' the hammer down! Talk about being the complete opposite of the quote posted earlier by Commodore about the same guy... are there two Black coaches named Tony Dungy? I'm starting to feel a little sorry for Commodore. He's been blindsided!
