Okay, on a global perspective, what does this mean? Based on my "race", I am half-Korean and half-German. Korea was occupied and terrorized by Japan for many decades - Koreans were made slaves by Japanese as well. I am a German citizen. Are you advocating that I should be entitled to demand reparations from Japan based on my race? (I don't even want to get started talking about how, if this works the other way, I will never be able to pay enough to make up for German war crimes - just because I happen to be German.) Don't you realize that by basing a claim for reparation payments on race based on historical wrongdoings or sufferings of ancestors, you are demanding something impossible and unjust? What if you are half black and half white? Does one half of you pay the other half, so that you come out even? There is obviously a concept of personal accountability for wrongdoings. There is also a concept of accountability of a state or its successor for its own historical wrongdoings or wrongdoings of its predecessor. A state is a legal entity. There is no concept of accountability and rights to claim reparations based on race. A race is not a legal entity.
Originally posted by DaDakota Also, most of the slaves were not kidnapped or murdered by Americans but were legally purchased from other tribes in Africa....barbaric but true. If I were to walk into your family's home in 1700 and steal your wife and children I'd think you'd see that as far from legal. If I then sold them to someone who shipped them somewhere else and your kids happened to die in transit or were worked to death I think you'd see that as murder. I agree, anyone that was a slave should be entitled to reparations, the point is that NOT one of them is still alive, and not ONE slave owner is still alive too. This is an idiotic argument. The impact of slavery on the black community needs to be researched and dealt with. If current problems in the black community can be attributed to slavery then reparations should be paid. This is the same government and the same country that supported slavery. These analogies about "everyone has an ancestor that was once a slave" is ridiculous because empires and nations rise and fall. There is no one to hold accountable for slavery when an entire nation or governmental system doesn't exist. You can't hold the Egyptian government accountable for what the Pharaohs did, that's preposterous. And spare me the war analogies as well. America was in no war with any African nation. This isn't a conquering army situation. So, exactly who is entitled to reparations, since no one living has been a slave in this country? The descendants of slaves. Our country has made mistakes, no question, but it is ridiculous to be talking about this 137 years AFTER the fact. This isn't about ONE mistake. This is about a history of screwing black people over in this country, from slavery to poll taxes to segregation. It may be different if once slaves were freed they were treated as equals in this country but they weren't. The only thing ridiculous about talking about this 137 years later is that our country has been so embarrassingly racist that nothing has been done about this.
Originally posted by DaDakota Yep becuase some greedy DUMB F$%KS will always want a hand out for something they had no part in. American blacks have not been impacted by slavery? That's a good one. Is that some of that famous common sense there? I can hear Farakhan now...."Pssst hey everyone, let's jump on this slave reparations kick, with this oversensitive PC movement we might actually get some money out of this. Who is with me?" Yeah, I hear Farrakhan is getting a 10% commission.
I really wish people would stop equating reparations with placing blame. NO ONE IS BLAMING ANYONE HERE! DaDa, I KNOW you never owned a slave. BK, I know you don't OWE anyone anything. It's not about today's white people OWING today's black people money. It's about RECOGNIZING the fact that black people are still at a disadvantage in this country, and that the reason they are has a lot to do with the fallout of slavery and the 137 years of racism that has followed. Reparations is but a functional/proactive way to even things out. I realize that taxpayer money would go toward this, but honestly, where would you prefer your money to go? Like Timing said, Israel? Egypt? A new highway? If you would rather have that pothole on your way to work fixed so your SUV can go have a smoother ride to work, as opposed to maybe helping a family out that isn't blessed with the same priviliges you were BORN with, well...then...all I can say is that you are one selfish b*stard.
Without taking a side on the issue, I just want to get something straight. Not everyone who's African-American would be elligible for the reparations. It would only be those that were proven to be the descendants of slaves in the U.S. There is a huge difference. I can't remember what the exact stats are.
Originally posted by Sir Jackie Chiles Okay, on a global perspective, what does this mean? Not really my concern, I'm an American not Italian or Korean. Germany has paid reparations to Jews and I think Australia is looking at paying reparations to it's native peoples but I don't know the history involved there. Every nation has different morals, standards, laws, etc. and can make their own judgements. Don't you realize that by basing a claim for reparation payments on race based on historical wrongdoings or sufferings of ancestors, you are demanding something impossible and unjust? I don't see it as the fault of black Americans that they were predominantly enslaved. America set those terms here. What if you are half black and half white? Does one half of you pay the other half, so that you come out even? I think most of you are stuck on this concept of a check being cut to individual Americans and that is definitely not what's been talked about in terms of reparations from the US government. At this stage they're simply looking for a study to be done on the subject of reparations for slavery. Every time this subject comes up people get all hysterical about it and it makes you wonder why they're afraid of a study. If the study shows conclusively that there has been a serious impact on the black community then are you still against it? Obviously there would be issues with implementation of whoever would be eligible for help from a reparations fund but I'm sure that can be worked out. It's certainly not a valid reason to refrain from doing a study.
All whites have always been rich by the way. ALL OF THEM. All whiteys are brought up with a gold spoons (several) in their mouth. They don't have to work, go to school, sacrafice, NOTHING. Only blacks are raised up poor, and white always have money. And we have super exclusive memberships where we learn to "keep the black man down." So don't tell me whitey can't afford to pay the black man. DaD, give Timing $100 right now, you know you recieved that money illegally. Just take it out of the safe where you keep all that extra slave money.
You really see things evening out because of this? I mean how much money are we talking about one black family receiving? Can it really be that much that it would lead to some sort of social change? It seems to me like it's just the governement saying, "We're sorry for the way we mistreated your ancestors over a century ago...so here's a little extra spending money...will you forgive us?" It just seems like more of a gesture to me than it does a reformation plan. Maybe I just don't realize how much they're talking about each eligible African-American person receiving, but I can't imagine it would be enough to really make a difference. Well, I still think it would have a negative effect on race relations. What about other whites, hispanics, asians, etc... who aren't any better off than a lot of African American people in the country. What about those people...don't they get any thing? Wouldn't they have a right to be upset? Ya know, not every white person is "blessed with privileges" either.
It's about RECOGNIZING the fact that black people are still at a disadvantage in this country, and that the reason they are has a lot to do with the fallout of slavery and the 137 years of racism that has followed. Reparations is but a functional/proactive way to even things out. Isn't that what affirmative action is? Instead of talking about "reparations", why not continue to implement programs to help people in poverty? If you would rather have that pothole on your way to work fixed so your SUV can go have a smoother ride to work, as opposed to maybe helping a family out that isn't blessed with the same priviliges you were BORN with, well...then...all I can say is that you are one selfish b*stard. Do you give all your spare money to helping families out? Or do you buy stuff for yourself? You could go sell your car and get a cheaper one so you could help out some of those families that weren't born with your privileges. Or are you just a selfish b*stard? What a ludicrous argument. When people justify reparations with junk like this ("if you disagree with me that you should give your money to correct this particular wrong, you must be a selfish b*stard"), it really takes away the credibility of the argument.
DC... I am not sure how much money we are talking about...obviously it would have to be a pretty good sum to make a significant impact. As far as race relations goes, I don't think it would make it any worse than it already is. I think I jumped the gun on my stance FOR reparations. Obviously I don't think it's an end-all cure-all, but I do think it would help. I know there are a lot of problems with it in a logistical sense. But what gets me upset is when people are so quick to dismiss it without thinking outside of themselves. All I'm asking for is an open mind...and I think that's all Timing's asking for, as well... You have to start somewhere, and performing a congressionally-backed study on the issue is a good place IMO. Also, to clear up some points that were addressed in the other thread, but not necessarily READ by those who choose to make the same arguments over and over again (apologies to those new to the issue/thread -- that statement is not directed towards you): The whole 'Africans selling each other into slavery' argument is weak IMO. Totally different contexts. Yes, there were individual, enterprising Africans from the coast that made a living off of rounding up Africans further inland. It wasn't always an entire tribe selling off slaves from a rival tribe that they acquired through warfare, conquest, whatever. Nobody ever said all Africans were innocent, but not everyone was guilty either. Black people are people after all, and like with all people, there are mostly good people and then there are some bad people. In the cases in which it was a tribal thing, often the Africans that sold other Africans into slavery did not know what they were in store for. We're talking about two different systems of slavery here. The African system of slavery was about labor, not about dehumanization, torture, and murder. It's been established that African slaves were still treated with a fair share of respect, and did not have to suffer the fate that American slaves (and subsequently their children) had to suffer for generations. Major -- the selfish b*stard remark comes from me talking about what you would prefer your taxes to accomplish...not what you pay out of pocket to charitable causes. I think there's a difference. My point is, you are gonna pay taxes no matter what, so wouldn't you prefer that money go towards helping people instead of making your life a little easier in some regards?
How about people who pay for internet service instead of giving that money to a needy family? Such people are obviously selfish too, right? I'll tell you what bugs me the most about this--the people who are profiting off stirring up the people of their own race. It disgusts me that some people have basically made an industry out of making other people discontent. I'm sure there are some honest people, but I can't help but think that many civil rights leaders aren't as interested in righting all the wrongs as they are in lining their own pockets. If all accounts were "settled" tomorrow, they would find themselves out of jobs, and they're not going to allow that to happen. That's the last thing they want. The oppression of "their people" is what allows them to live in the upper one percent economically.
The only reason why slave reparations will probably never go through is because of the legality of the situation . But from a moral or eithical standpoint, corporations or businesses that profited from slavery should owe the ancestors of slaves something . For anyone to say that they shouldnt, are either really ignorant and blind to the situation, or racist.
Originally posted by Major Isn't that what affirmative action is? Instead of talking about "reparations", why not continue to implement programs to help people in poverty? The Civil Rights movement has really not done a whole lot to close the wealth gap between whites and blacks. According to the top chart the gap between blacks and whites has remained pretty constant since 1967.
The lifetime of the actor. You're still out of luck. But at the time...it WAS LEGAL. Right or wrong it was legal. Geez... OK...figure out how much is "owed" and subtract out the total value of governmental transfer payments which have been made to African-Americans. Privileges I was born with???!!! I have WORKED for every damn thing I have. Nobody GAVE me a bloody thing!!!! Yeah I want the potholes fixed so I don't ruin the suspension on the car I WORKED for...went into debt to get the education that made it possible for me to afford. So you call me a selfish b*stard...bite me. It will bankrupt the nation...so...um...YEAH!!!! A study that those wanting it would have it boil down to a check. Let's not play semantics. Just boil it down to what REALLY is wanted. Help what? Help us see more Fubu jerseys...more designer clothes??? Do you really think that it will help black families get out of the ghetto? You really need to think about this. A selfish b*stard is a selfish b*stard....PERIOD. You said it we read it...no need to backtrack now. You really think that it would be paid out of current tax funds? If so then you understand NOTHING about governmental economics. There would have to be a special tax. The level of reparations that the black leadership has suggested would be $80,000 for EVERY white man, woman, AND CHILD in the United States. Great plan. Fantastic. Go out and find the handful of corporations in operation today that were around in 1865. Then PROVE a dollar amount that they profited from slavery. You'll go bankrupt trying to recreate the financial documents and paying accountants, economists and lawyers trying to prove up the damages. Good luck.
Nice try. How many African-American kids CHOOSE to drop out of high school? How many CHOOSE to not go to college? It isn't the fault of slavery. There are issues in that community that are not the doing of others. They must be worked out within that community. No check for reparations will solve it.
Originally posted by Refman The lifetime of the actor. You're still out of luck. The US government is still around last I heard. But at the time...it WAS LEGAL. Right or wrong it was legal. Geez... Murder, kidnapping, and conspiracy all legal huh. You're stuck on this concept of what was legal where is your sense of what is right. If a study finds reparations is the right thing to do then so be it. OK...figure out how much is "owed" and subtract out the total value of governmental transfer payments which have been made to African-Americans. Irrelevant. A study that those wanting it would have it boil down to a check. Let's not play semantics. Just boil it down to what REALLY is wanted. You're so out of touch with the concept of slavery and fairness in this country that it's borderline disgusting. If a STUDY concludes that reparations are warranted then there should be reparations. Help what? Help us see more Fubu jerseys...more designer clothes??? Do you really think that it will help black families get out of the ghetto? You really need to think about this. Maybe you need to think about what idiotic stereotypical things you choose to type here.
Government of the people, for the people and by the people. We are the government...or did you skip civics class? The government did none of those things. They allowed slavery...period. I'd love to imprison and sue all the people that did the acts...but their dead and buried. What was legal is relevant since it is the legal system doleing our reparations we are talking about here. you can't tear the legal system out of this. Try again. Very relevant. We instituted many of these programs to lift the black people out of homelessness. It was to even the playing field. Also affirmative action has an intrinsic value. You can't just ignore what has already been paid because it suits your argument. You are so out of touch with how the world works that it is disgusting...no borderline about it. You are wanting to ignore the legal system and all of its principles while asking the legal system for redress...nice logic. A 1997 study (you're fond of those) showed that the lower socio-economic stratus spends their money on entertainment and fancy clothing over ALL ELSE. I saw it forst hand when my uncle (low economic status) would spend his last dollar on a show. Sorry that I didn't get my point across. I can see how you'd think that I was being inflammatory...sorry. It does not excuse your behavior of calling me an idiot though.
Question: Are these rallies and protests supporting the study of slavery impact and the feasibility of reparations, or do they just call for the legislation that would enact reparations? In other words, are they asking for the studies to be done or is that already happening?
