Has any Coach Been More Fortunate than Phil Jackson

Jackson wasn't the most fortunate coach in the NBA based on his roster? Elaborate please.

 

Don Chaney won coach of the year with the Rockets and then got canned for Rudy T.

The reasoning? the team lost confidence in him and he couldn't motivate players and manage personalities.


I believe Phil Jackson is a good coach. You don't win that many championships if you are not one.

Obviously great players get you championships, and not so great ones send you to become an ESPN commentator like JVG.

 

The NBA is not like other sports, where a mediocre (or slightly above average) team can get hot at the right time and cruise through the playoffs, given the playoff format and structure of the game, possibly other outside influences. In the NBA to find a real underdog who did not stand any chance of winning, you have to go back to 94 and 81 Rockets or few years before that with Seattle Supersonic teams or the GS Warriors with Rick Barry. You might could add the Pistons of 04 and 88-90, but when you look at those teams from top to bottom, both are pretty talented and played otherworldly defense. Stand as the only few teams in NBA history who have really bucked the trend.

Either winning with one superstar and no other all-stars, or a team comprised of many good players who are not necessarily outstanding (sort of like the Blazers or the Mavericks in the early part of the decade).

Most of the championships are reserved for the teams with the superstars or the teams that can throw big dollars at free agents. The opposite happens in the NFL, while teams in MLB who spend big win some years, but are undercut other years by very talented young rosters (Devil Rays, Tigers, and Marlins). San Antonio has somewhat proved that wrong, though, but they have Tim Duncan, a two-time (should be three, 1999) MVP. The only other teams I can think who did not have top flight superstar and seriously challenged for the NBA crown (were Miller-Pacers, 2000s Pistons,

I think you can say Phil Jackson has been the best and most accomplish of the multiple winning NBA Finals coaches. Also, he is more like a general manager type coach (sort of like Joe Torre), since a team is filled with so many stars and egos. He's not like the Parcells-Coughlin-Belichick type in every thing is done my way, or the highway.

Is he the greatest basketball coach ever, not quite. I'll contend to the end of time that the best basketball coaches are (or were) in college. I think Xs and Os wise, Phil is pretty good, but certainly not best I've ever seen. I do not think he could take a rag-tag group of players with no an outstanding all-star on them and go deep into playoffs. People will point to the 94 Bulls, but not realize how good Pippen was that year (and how is game opens the court for everyone else) and how good the other players were, like Grant, Armstrong, and Kukoc. Though, Phil might've put his best effort that season, as the Bulls came very close to knocking off the Knicks (who won the East).

He's never been on a team that was historically bad, or one that lacked bonafide superstar player or HOF. But, when you think about it, could you blame him. Those kind of teams take alot of work to build and is very challenging and is probably reserve for those Bear Bryant (Bill Parcells-Larry Brown) type coaches or even Joe Gibbs. It's much harder to get a team that has always been bad to competitive level or even a championship vs. a team that has ready made superstars and players with talent.

 

He is both underrated and overrated.

For the ring-counters, he is grossly overrated. He is a very good coach. But he is not 10 times better than Larry Brown, or 5 times better than Rudy T, or 2.5 times better than Pop, or infinitely better than Adelman. In fact, I am not sure if he is ANY BETTER than those guys. Every time I hear people say he is the greatest of all time "because you can't argue with 10 rings" I just roll my eyes.

But I also agree that he is underrated by those who think he is just a coattail rider. He is among the better coaches in NBA history. I just don't think there is such a thing as "the greatest coach" because different kinds of coaches are good with different kinds of teams. It's like comparing greatness between a PG and a center.

 

Ok, I'll propose one. Red Auerbach. The guy had a coach on the floor in Bill Russell for all nine of his championships. In fact, Russell was so much of a coach that the team didn't really miss a beat after Red retired and they won two more championships.

 

Pluto: I agree that he's never really turned around a historically bad team -- but -- I do think the post Shaq Lakers were a very weak team on the verge of implosion -- with serious conflict between the star and the coach. And he overcame that. Most couldn't. He was able to navigate that situation, keeping his job, keeping his star, and building the team.

I also might agree about college coaches being better at X's and O's -- except that's not the role of a coach at the pro level. He has to get the most out of talented players -- not teach them the game. And he does that. Can you imagine getting Kobe (who's about as driven, focused and demanding as can be) to work along side Odom (who's pretty much the opposite)? Or anybody to work with Rodman? (I watched celebrity apprentice and wanted break my TV). Lots of talent to work with, sure...but not an easy task.

He has worked with very talented teams. But 10 championships with 3 different cores is pretty impressive. And he's sustained the motivation of of his players over time (for the most part -- ignoring the Shaq spat). Again -- that's more then simply being fortunate.

I don't think many other coaches -- even given the same opportunities as Jackson, could have accomplished what he has. So that's why I think saying he's the 'most fortunate' is a bit dismissive of his accomplishments. Best ever? I don't know. Too many criteria, too many differences in eras. But I do think he's been a greater architect of his own success then the mere recipient of good fortune.

And I hope the Suns crush the Lakers.

 

Well I can't really debate that one. That was before my time. I guess my original statement doesn't mean anything since I didn't get to watch the guys play back in the old days.

 

The question is were these players "great" before Phil became they're coach. Kobe? Mj?

 

are you serious?

mj was great before phil

 

Phil has been pretty fortunate, but he's alot better coach than what people give him credit for. If he had adelman's kings, he probably would've beat lakers led by rick just as he beat a loaded adelman blazers team

 

I know he is lucky !! that's for sure, but still he is great coach, if other coaches were in his shoes they would've probably couldn't handle his teams.

 

at least get your facts straight. kobe was drafted in 96 and phil came in to coach in 99. payton was signed in 04. Is it by accident phil coached teams are always good both offensively and defensively? is it accidental his teams are always a top passing team also?

 

1 thing people cant deny is the triangle is a great offense.

lots of ball movement. great spacing, and a low turnover system.

 

Even the ones that defend Jackson admit he always had the best talent. And here you are, coming in from left field to say he was actually undermanned and it was coaching that made all the difference.

Why not look at last year when the two met in the playoffs. Only one guy was doing any coaching.

 

Phil Jackson deserves more credits than people gave him. I dont see cavs winning a championship with Mike Brown, I dont see Kevin Durant winning a championship scott brooks. Players are the core of the team, but a good coach brings championship rings.

 

Not if he was going 8 vs. 5 like Adelman was.

 

leebigez. try reading. i didnt say he learned from GP when payton was on the lakers. he started working with him since his first or second All Star game. my original point was that another poster was claiming MJ n Kobe grew into elite players based solely on PJ. and thats BS. nice one tho.

first, i really don't think anyone is arguing against his uncanny ability to make headstrong players work in unity. that is what puts him head over heels (10 championships) over every other coach. i'm sure if he coached in Philly instead of Larry Brown maybe A.I. wouldve had a couple of rings by now.
If he had RAs Kings though? he would've definitely lost to an adelman led Shaq/Kobe lakers. you think Kobe and Shaq in RAs system wouldnt work? they would dominate.

So, is PJ the most fortunate coach? Yes. Does he have the best coaching abilities? No, but he is one of the best and his championships make him the greatest.

LBJ and Mike Brown is a perfect example. LBJ took that team to the finals but Mike Brown couldn't get them over the hump. PJ could easily win another 5 championships with LBJ.

 

obviously, im talking about the 81 point game. and to say Kobe couldn't score 20 points in 6 minutes is ridiculous. he doesnt have to shoot lights out from beyond the arc to get 20. driving to the basket and drawing fouls stops the clock and puts points on the board. he does that 5 times and he is halfway there. a few more jumpers and maybe a couple of 3's and he is there.

 

in 1 simple word...

hell nah no other coach was as fortunate as his lucky ass!

umm, well mayb not one word but u get my drift

 

roslolian/leebigez: here is an excerpt from an old article about Kobe learning from other players GP in particular.

the article also goes into his opinion on PJ vs. his other coaches. altho he only had Del Harris and Kurt Rambis.

link: http://www.slamonline.com/online/kicks/2009/07/kicks-3-presents-eightball/