Is Bosh a franchise player?

It depends on how much of an improvement we're talking about. If you keep the defense constant but improve offense, you're still making them a better team.

Not too sure about that. That Warriors team was built to defeat Dallas. Are you aware that during the regular season that season, the Mavs played the Warriors 3 times and the Warriors won all 3?

What's stupid is that you're trying to relate Dirk's inability to win a title to Bosh's inability to get to the playoffs in a weak conference.

And lets not forget the preferential treatment Wade received in the finals.

Are you seriously trying to judge a player based on his worst game of the series?

Since you think his fall away jumper is the only shot he can consistently get, its a good thing it's nearly unstoppable.

You were criticizing Dirk's playoff performance and I was merely showing you that the statistics don't support your opinion.

And once again, there's a huge difference between Dirk's failure to lead the Mavs to the WC Semi-finals and Bosh's failure to lead the Raptors to the playoffs in the weak eastern conference.

Its not that simple. You're talking about the Raptors building a team around Dirk (as they've tried to do with Bosh). If that's the case, they don't pick Bargnani; they pick Aldridge. And who knows how solid an Aldridge/Dirk combination would be.

My point is that Dirk is superior to Bosh to the point that he could (IMO) take the Raptors to the playoffs whereas Bosh cannot. Sure, they'd get crushed. But that's entirely irrelevant to my point.

Bosh should take it upon himself to be the defensive post presence that contests shots. He has the physical tools and natural abilities. He's just an underachiever.

Nowitzki would be the difference between a playoff team and a non-playoff team.

What year do you think this is? Kidd is simply too slow now and Marion is not nearly the defender he used to be in Phoenix. He's clearly slower and less athletic than he used to be.

If he had to cover his teammates' defensive mistakes, Dirk's numbers would probably drop. But what's your point? As you've stated, Bosh doesn't cover his teammates' mistakes either.

Comparing apples to apples doesn't work in your favor so now you're trying to compare apples to oranges?

My point is that Dirk's far superior offensive repertoire makes him a more potent offensive threat despite the fact that Bosh may have better overall percentages (marginally).

There's a big difference between putting up impressive numbers on a bad team vs putting up impressive numbers on a good team.

You can't assume that Bosh would maintain his current production if he were to replace Dirk. However, it is logical that Dirk's numbers would increase if he were to replace Bosh on the Raptors.

 

Wow completely agree , but w/out injuries i think Yao would have been a top 3 player in the league, only the injuries have made him "not quite batman"

 

Can you list all the players you consider to be franchise players?

 

They are all gone

Vspan
Wafer
that tall white guy that shot 3's from some small school.

 

Irrelevant. We don't need a PF who can do that, which is why so many of us are wary of Big Al. We've got Yao, who does that fine. Now if you can do that in addition to other things, great, and Bosh is inferior to Gasol or Howard in my books. But since we won't get Gasol or Howard in a thousand years, that is irrelevant.

 

I'd say that currently at or near their peak franchise players include:

LeBron
Howard
Wade

Declining franchise players:

Duncan
Kobe
Shaq

Recent past franchise players:

Olajuwon
Jordan

I'm probably missing a few players on these lists. I didn't spend that much time thinking about it but those are the types of players I consider to be "franchise players." I thought that Roy would solidify himself as one this season as he took another step in his development but injuries seemed to hold him back. Durant is probably on the cusp.

The bottom line is that if you look at championship teams of the past, almost every one of them had a clear cut franchise player, i.e., a player clearly worth a max contract.

The Pistons were a notable exception and I don't believe that they had anybody making max dollars.

In my opinion, if you don't land a clear cut Grade A special player, don't give max or near max dollars to a 2nd-tier guy. Instead, try to build a team of a lot of very good players making no more than let's say $10 mil based on today's cap and hope that you can beat a team with a legit franchise player by having greater balance.

In addition to not having enough solid role players, the Rockets of recent were doomed when trying to fool themselves that either Yao or Tracy were worthy of max contracts. Neither are/were franchise players.

I'm on the fence about Bosh.

Edit: I intentionally left off all active PGs, including Paul and Williams. I'm very hesitant to make a midget (relatively speaking), no matter how talented, one of my franchise players for reasons explained in my Dish thread: http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=185946

 

Once again it was lost in disagreement.

 

The guy isn't going deep in the playoffs without a very talented team around him and to me that isn't worth it. I'd try to acquire a few more quality pieces rather than go after Bosh.

He's not much of a defender, is not a clutch player and has no "go to" move.

 

And I don't believe it would be an improvement, period. Lateral move.

But Dirk the franchise player should have been able to average 40 and 20 right? He should have willed his team to victory..right? Oh, its unrealistic to expect one player to make up for a team wide weakness? Got ya.

Different circumstances, different expectations. If Bosh had the team Dirk has he would have won 55+ too.

Well its not exactly the first time its happened. Regardless, my point isn't that Dirk is a choker. Dirk is an amazing player. What I was trying to point out is that you think Dirk is heads and shoulders above Bosh offensively, and yet he is incapable of carrying his team by himself. When Kidd and others were inconsistent or completely absent they were sunk. No matter how good Dirk is.

And unstoppable? Except when they stop it. Crowd him and send a late double.

You're saying Dirk is far better offensively, the statistics don't support your opinoin.

Bargnani isn't a good fit either way. He's not a center. They need a center, not another PF. But what you're basically arguing is that if they had Dirk they would be smarter with their team building decisions. Man, Dirk IS good.

Even if he would, which is a big if to begin with since I don't think you're valuing Bosh's rebounding contributions highly enough, would getting to the playoffs and getting stomped still make Dirk a franchise player?

Now I'm going off scouting reports here as I haven't watched his defense closely enough. But from what I've read Bosh is a good PNR defender due to his speed and length and good in the team defense. Its post defense he struggles with since he's not real strong for his height. Dirk isn't any better.

And who would you rather have: Bargnani, Hedo, and Calderon? Or Dampier, Kidd, and Marion?

You stated taht Bosh should find a way to cover for his teammates mistakes. Ok, but could Nowitzki? And if he did wouldn't his offensive numbers drop? Basically, you're judging Bosh on unfair criteria.

Besides, I would argue that Bosh does do what he can. His center is the worst rebounding big in the league, so Bosh cleans the baords like a madman to make up for it. Would Dirk do the same? I don't know, which is largely why I think this "well player X would do this if he were in player Y's position" is pretty ridiculous.

And mine would be that Bosh's comparable scoring at higher efficiency and better rebounding make Dirk's more diverse offensive game a wash.

Illogical. That only applies when a player puts up good numbers on a bad OFFENSIVE team. Bosh puts up great numbers on a top 5 offensive team. If anything what you are arguing would be the other way around, however I would not argue that as there is no way in heck we could possibly know that.

No, its not.

 

If we're talking about giving Kobe 30 million over 3 years, yes, thats absurd and way too much. But I believe Bosh is worth every bit of 16-17 million. Much more than that and I'm not so sure.

And the only real difference is that we have different definition of what a franchise player is. Honestly, I don't really have an opinion of whether or not a guy like Bosh is. My argument is that he's no lesser than some guys who are considered franchise guys (like Dirk) the only difference is he plays on an extremely unbalanced team that has squandered away its capspace on soft overrated players.

 

The problem with what your saying DD is that there are only 4 players in the NBA today who fit "true" franchise player status.....

Lebron
Wade
Howard
Durant

There is no logical way anyone can put Duncan down as a franchise player anymore, Kobe is fading fast, Paul just missed a complete season, and Dirk plays ZERO D.

So is it your premise that no one in the NBA should get a max deal besides the top handful?? I'm sure NBA owners would love the idea..lol...but it isn't really the going market. So going by what the actual market says then yes Bosh is a max player..........just as Yao and Tmac were max players when we got them based on what the going rate was for someone of their talent.

I guess the real question is it more beneficial for the Rockets to sign another All-Star to go with Yao (assuming he even comes back somewhat close to where he was)?? Or is it more beneficial to let our expiring contracts go out next year and use the pay flex on two lesser role players?? I would go with the bona-fide All-Star, but I can see where that is debatable.

In my opinion the question of whether or not Bosh is franchise player is irrelevant (he's not).....................but the question is it more beneficial for the Rockets to add another All-Star like Bosh or add two more really good role players.

 

Not a franchise player.

But I don't think one is necessary to win it all in a perfect scenario. And I think adding Bosh to other near-franchise-guys in Yao and Martin, along with a blossoming scorer in Brooks.. could be one of those unselfish, team-type scenarios where you don't need the true franchise player. A la '04 Pistons

 

I can agree with taht. I just don't think 16-17 million isn't overpaying him. If he were up for a 23 million dollar max contract then yeah, forget that. 16-17 though for a guy who is top 10 in scoring, rebounding, and drawing fouls when guys like Turkey Glue can get 11? Yeah, yeah I think so.

I just don't think we should resign Yao for the max under any circumstance. THAT would be a recipe for disaster.

 

The point is that even if there are only 5 or so legit franchise players in the league, then ignore what the market dictates and don't get suckered into overpaying for a 2nd-tier player.

Fans want a winning product. You may appease them in the short-term by overpaying for that 2nd-tier player but in the long-term, if you go the route of the recent Pistons and get several very good players because you know you can't land a true franchise player, then you will win more games and more fans will show up as a result.

Among the worst things you can do as an organization is overpay for 2nd or 3rd-tier players like the Rockets did with Tracy and Yao.

 

Whoa...you don't think Hill is tradeable? We got him for the sole purpose of trading him lol.

Other than that I agree.

 

Well players may have more market value than they are able to get. If LeBron was eligible for a 25 million dollar contract I bet there would be a lot of teams willing to pay it. So if he's worth that (I'm not saying he is) would Bosh be worth 16-17?

How about this: What would you do in Morey's position? If you can get Bosh without giving too much (Jeffries, Batteir/Ariza, Hill, Knick picks) would you? Or would you go another route?

I think having one max guy is ok, especially when we have several other real quality players signed long term (and will sign long term) for far below the max.