Can someone please point me to my post where I said the current laws are fair for the men involved? Of course they're not, but you can't propose anything that would be fair for anyone. If you decided that a man has a right to terminate a woman's choice to have an abortion, then you make things just as unfair for the woman. Do you guys not see that? Unfortunately, that's how it is, and since she's the one that is carrying the baby and could possibly lose her life giving birth. Because of that, until someone finds a fair and consistent alternative to the current law, the woman has to benefit. Yes, that sucks. Which number do you think is higher? The number of deadbeat moms subtracted from the number of deadbeat dads or the number of dads who wanted to keep a child but the woman had the fetus aborted?
You may not want me chiming in in support of you, but that was a pretty damn brilliant illustration. Crap, now I've jinxed you....
project meaning into this statement all you want. you are ill informed if you think dropping a few million sperm into a vagina in the heat of the moment qualifies a man to become a father. the generalization in your reply shows an overly sensitive defensiveness about men. no where did i imply that all (or any particular number of) men all sperm donors. however, if the condom fits... as an obstetrician (male), i know many men who are outstanding fathers of children who are not biologically their own. unfortunately, i have had to work with DNA-proven "fathers" who have no business raising goldfish and who never had any intention of becoming a father; but, they screw up the lives of their offspring based on some perception that donating 23 chromosomes earns the right to be a parent without assuming the role in a responsible manner. bubba needs a license to hunt and fish, why not one to be a dad? (just kidding - sort of)
Parentla rights are given just by giving the chromosones. If you do it in a dangerous or unhealthy manner you are subject to having the CPS come calling. Assuming that a man will not be a good father is a crappy reason to terminate the pregnancy. You haven't jinxed him. That post was brilliant. I'm sure it will get flamed, but it rings true. Please point out where I have ever referred to somebody's religion as "dumb." If you can't then I'm not in a glass house now am I? So they've actually had a conversation with the fetus? The fetus grabbed the womb phone and called Mom up and asked to be aborted? Or did they use a medium? This is all very speculative. Once the child is dead...then there are no possibilities (unless you call scraping it off the forceps and slinging it into the trash a possibility). In this context erring on the side of caution is clearly allowing birth. That is the only way that there are possibilities.
What religious belief ISN'T speculative? Creating the world in seven days? Believing in heaven and hell? Virgins hanging out waiting for you when you die? Religion is based on belief and faith. No one said it wasn't iffy. I'm just saying that it is no more or less possible than any other speculative belief. What I'm saying is that there are a myriad of ideas and beliefs on the subject. Isolating one as superior to any of the others is non-sensical.
Jeff...you're missing the mark here. There is nothing more iffy than a fetus choosing to be aborted and communicating that to their Mom. If a woman claimed that she'd likely be placed in an asylum for evaluation. And the point that was made in reponse is that since we don't know when the child gets a soul, etc...that maybe its best to err on the side of caution. That is if we don't want to risk killing a souled being. You may believe in souls and you may not...I don't know and it's not relevant. You could insert life force for soul..or whatever it is that you believe makes a being human.
My position against abortion in general dates back to my pre-Christian era. Now I'm kind of in a post-Christian era and it still remains firm in my mind. Predictably when I was a church going Christian, my conviction was solid. You've never found me quoting scripture to deny abortion. You will only find me holding up innocent children and their right to life. Sadly, there are a few, very few, instances when their rights could be trampled (medical necessity etc). The sanctity of life is always apparent. It makes war abhorrent but sometimes necessary. It makes the loss of innocent life particularly ignominious and there is no more innocent life than that of the unborn child.
For what it's worth, I agree with you Sheridan. Just because a man has "dropped some sperm" does not make him a "Father" or a "Daddy". Extending on this train of thought, just because a pregnant woman gives birth, this does not make a woman a "Mommy" or "Mother". Getting back on the topic, If both people involved consented to partake in the sexual act, both people involved should be able to decide how to proceed with a pregnancy. If both agree on any course of action, that action should be taken. If there is disagreement on what action should be taken, obviously, one parent wants this child, and the child should be allowed to be born into this world and feel the love that this parent has to offer. If there are no permanent health complications, pregnancy is but a nuisance to a woman, but not much else. I do not mean to trivialize or simplify pregnancies, but it is a natural part of a females life to give birth. If the female does not want this child, allow the father to raise the child. Allow for "compensation" for the female for her inconvenience, but make sure that once that child is here, and in the safe and loving care of the father, child support be paid, just as it is with fathers who are not the primary caregivers of children. In my ideal, perfect world, there would not be abortion.
Here's something interesting... I wonder how many of the pro-choicers were born before the 1973 Roe v. Wade decision...and how many after 1973. I think it would be interesting to see whether those born after 1973 tend to be pro-life due to the fact that they themselves could have legally been aborted.
Nice point about religion, Jeff. Otherwise, boy am I done with this. If you feel like I insulted you, giddyup, I apologize. Whatever. It's easier than detailing every single thing that offended me about your posts, in ever finer detail until you finally fall asleep. And it's not that important to me to be "right." The trophy kind of sucks and you want it more than me, anyway. I came into this thread to say we should be sensitive to each other about a sensitive issue. I shared a personal anecdote, not to share as I really don't know you guys, but to make the point that this is a hard issue, even for demagogues, when they're faced with it in person. As for the mothers' vs. fathers' rights, which started this, it's been said again and again. As long as abortion is legal, one of them is going to decide and it will be unfair to the other one. Anyone who's complaining about the way it is would have equal grounds to complain about it if it changed in the slightest. It will either be unfair to the father or the mother. Does anyone who has a problem with the fathers' rights being violated think the mothers' rights should be violated instead? I really don't think so. So the final thing to say about it is, wow. That's unfair. That sucks. But there is NO solution, so you choose the least bad solution. That's where we're at. I'm not here to convince anyone to become pro-choice, only to become a little more understanding. And not to hate. I don't hate people for shooting abortion doctors. I understand why they do it and I feel bad that (a) the doctor's dead, and (b) the guy who did something he felt to be utterly principled is in jail for a long, long time. But that's what happens when someone decides their moral imperative is at odds with the law and above the law. That comes from not understanding each other on this issue and seeing the other side as wrong and maybe even evil. I've said it several times: Nobody wins, no matter what the choice, in the case of unwanted pregnancy. That is worth considering and really thinking about every time you get really mad at someone because they disagree with you on this topic. As for me, I'm done. You guys keep on keepin on. Work out the semantics. Save unborn babies on a message board. The whole thing gives me a tremendous headache around the seventh page. I'd rather talk about crows.
I was born in 1969 to young parents who didn't plan to get married and certainly didn't plan to have me. I am well aware that had abortion been legal I would have been aborted. In fact, my mother would have sought an illegal abortion except for the fact that her sister had nearly died from one less than a year prior. None of that changes my pro-choice beliefs.
I'm sorry. I said I was done, but this is too juicy. Refman, what would happen to a man who claimed to be the son of god? Where would they put him? What about a man who told you that when he died, all your sins would be absolved if you called him your savior? What if someone told you that God personally handed him ten rules and said everybody'd better follow them? What if someone told you they'd had a conversation with a burning bush? No religion wins the "iffy" prize. They are all equally, outrageously fantastical. I'm not saying here that any of them aren't absolutely true. You believe what you want. But, if you accept all that Christian stuff on faith, don't go round calling other people's beliefs iffy or grounds for institutionalization. That's some serious glass houses.
<b>Batman</b>: Why the need to inform me about what offended you in my posts? Some of your posting, and others as well, offends me but so what? If you want to not be offended by someone who might hold a postion that disagrees with you, just don't join in. You have no right to control the content-- unless I became personally offensive or something. Ironically, I have no sympathy for those people who kill abortion doctors or bomb abortion clinics.
No need, giddyup. I've said my piece on the matter. Go back and re-read it if you've forgotten. I stand by it and I'm done. Don't worry that you've upset me. I'm just tired of arguing about it and, like I said, I don't need to be right. I'm sorry abortions happen, too. I don't fault you for feeling strongly about it. See you in some other thread.
Batman is a poooussay! giddyup Batman...giddyup...! So, who says "giddyup" anyhow. I say "Hey Batman, nice Utility Belt" a lot, but I'm never successfually pulled of a "Giddyup Batman." Yeow!!!
What me worry? I'm more chagrined that you think the thread exists to please you and to purport your position without serious challenge. If I don't happen to agree I may say so. I will state the unstated and prop-up the overlooked. I will not insult to the best of my ability.
