do you know how their gold gloves or all-star appearances compare? also, who was the 2b who played most recently to go into the Hall? was it mazeroski? I know he was inducted most recently, but I'm wondering if there's another 2b who might have played more recently but who went into the Hall quicker.
There are only 18 second basemen in the HOF; the 2 with the most recent careers are Rod Carew & Joe Morgan, both significantly better players than Biggio. Here's the complete list. Sandberg: MVP in 1984 9 Gold Gloves 7 Silver Sluggers Biggio: 4 Gold Gloves 5 Silver Sluggers Don't know about All-Star appearances; hopefully the voters aren't dense enought to use that as a meaningful criteria (I feel the same about the Gold Glove).
I think Biggio should make it in. Many posters here think that he is in for sure. That is not the case. He needs 1 or 2 more years of production to help himself out.
I think he's borderline, but will eventually get in. He & Sandberg are/were the 2 best NL second basemen since Morgan (not saying a whole lot though), but another decent year or 2 would definitely help. Bagwell, on the other hand, is a no-questions-asked bona-fide 100% lock to get in.
I still find myself a little confused at times about the HOF standards. not asking to contest, but just asking to ask. . . what is it about bagwell's career that makes him such an automatic? with mcgwire, thome, thomas, even mcgriff or giambi [heck, throw in todd helton just for kicks], it seems like it's even a little harder for bagwell to stand out among his peers than biggio. so why do people regard bagwell as a lock? just curious.
mcgwire's a lock, and bagwell's a better overall player. they both started in 1991, and bagwell's numbers are superior. if anything, thome's the kind of player who might be hurt by his contemporaries because he doesn't really do anything to distinguish himself. (no gold gloves, just two seasons of .300, no individual awards, has only led the league in two categories: BBs and Ks...) at one time, thomas was headed for immortality, no doubt, and still might be, but his late career downturn, bad attitude and refusal to play defense will hurt his cause. still, in his prime... wow. mcgriff is sevral years older than bagwell, so he's not really a peer, so i'm not sure he's relevant, but... mcgriff will likely reach 500 HRs but can anyone name anything defining about his career? a tad early and he's not really bagwell's contemporary. take away what he's done at coors field and helton's numbers are fairly average. bagwell will go down at the best NL first baseman ever; he'll have an MVP (plus 2 other top 3 finishes), a ROY, a GG (though he deserved more), 4 ASG, plus (likely) 400 HR, 1500 RBI, 1500 R and if he's lucky, a .300 average. and most of those accomplishments occured in the astrodome. since 1996, he's missed 19 games total and has played in all 162 games 4 times in his career. he's an excellent defensive player, an astute baserunner and he's respected throughout baseball. i agree with those who think a WS ring and/or a lights out postseason would cement his cause, but if he quit today... he'd be tough to keep out. currently, on the bill james HALL OF FAME monitor, bagwell scores 134; 100 is considered a likely HoFer, 130 is considered a cinch. (FYI: helton=95; thome=62; thomas=168; mcgriff=93; giambi=65; mcgwire=169) btw, for whoever asked, sandberg has 9 GGs, 10 ASG (plus an MVP); biggio 4 GGs (all as a 2B), 7 ASG (no MVP, tho he deserved it in whatever year that was). more FYI: biggio scores an 89 on the HoF monitor (alomar's a 165; sandberg's a 157).
thanks, ric. where can one find this bill james deal? that sounds quite interesting. p.s. the reason I included mcgriff and mcgwire [even though they're older] and helton and giambi [even though they're younger] is because they play a role in the one problem I have with bagwell's career. . . it seems to me that, no matter how solid or even dominating bagwell has been throughout his career, there has always been another first baseman who's gotten more of the limelight. it's not really a problem in terms of the way I appreciate bagwell. I think he hasn't gotten the attention he deserves. but I wonder if it would be a perception problem with HOF voters. from the evidence that I've seen, it probably won't be. but it does kind of bother me that there's always been a mcgwire or a thomas to steal baggy's thunder. those bill james numbers are very interesting in light of all that.
Good post, Ric. Like you said before, Bagwell is the best first baseman in NL history, and it's really not even close. It's a shame that more people don't realize how truly special a ballplayer he is. Willie Stargell, 20 seasons (1963-82): G - 2360 AB - 7927 Avg - .282 OBP - .360 SLG - .529 H - 2232 2B - 423 HR - 475 RBI - 1540 R - 1195 BB - 937 K - 1936 SB - 17 Jeff Bagwell, 12 seasons (1991-present): G - 1738 AB - 6309 Avg - .302 OBP - .414 SLG - .551 H - 1903 2B - 417 HR - 367 RBI - 1285 R - 1255 BB - 1166 K - 1241 SB - 183 One of only 8 players (Jimmie Foxx-12 straight, Lou Gehrig-9, Babe Ruth-8, Albert Belle-8, Sammy Sosa-7, Willie Mays-6, Rafael Palmeiro-6) with 6 straight seasons (1996-01) of at least 30 HR, 100 RBI, and 100 runs. Chievous, check out The New Bill James Historical Baseball Abstract, it's expensive but a fascinating read.
i found all that information at baseball-reference.com. (sorry to blow it for everyone who thought i might've been pulling that stuff from memory) i understand your concern, but i don't think it's going to be a problem. my opinion, of course, we'll see... just remember, he's won two major postseason awards (ROY and MVP) and finished top 3 two other times in MVP voting. those awards are voted on by baseball writers, so it's pretty obvious they respect his game, and most of those guys have HoF votes. let me put it this way: he should be a no-doubt about it, first ballot lock, and even if he becomes eligible at the same time as the others listed (sans mcgwire, of course), i think his numbers stack up nicely. if he wants to cement his cause, it wouldn't hurt for him to dominate a postseason and/or be a factor on a championship team. but in the end, i'm don't think a lack of either will keep him out.
If you add in 100 walks for the past 6 seasons, he is the ONLY player to do that. Unfortunately, his streak will end this year, but if it doesn't then he will have ended the season tremendously strong.
Looks like he'll get there (or real close) in every category but runs. He's been hot the last month, if he can keep it up, who knows? 2002 Projected: 28 HR 96 RBI 86 R 105 BB
