Law school... and cute Asian chicks from Australia

I have found this to be very untrue.

I took out student loans to pay for all of my expenses during law school. My student loan payments are about $550 a month.

I would have already paid them off if I had just kept working for a firm rather than opened my own. Bad decision, and one that will take some time to pay off.

The fact remains that I certainly will have earned my way out of student debt...and before the age of 40.

 

^^^this

(I applied to law school this year, but I'm too stupid to get into T14... so if I can't get a good scholly into a Tier 1 or at least Tier 2 I'm not going)

 

read this

http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3203215

 

This is. . . wow.

 

I actually had a chance to interact with a lot of big firm partners and get one on one lunches/dinners with them this past summer because of my summer job and there are two essentially messages that all of them gave me:

1. The first was that this is actually the best time to be in law school because by the time my class graduates (2011) and even more likely the later classes (2012+), the legal market will be fine. There are actually signs that this sentiment is very true because even now, the market seems to be recovering a bit slowly outside of a few practice groups that were really hit hard by the recession. So I think by next year and beyond, the markets will open up again. The beauty of law is that most people hate big firms and are only willing to put up with the crap for 2-4 years max so the doors at big firms are always revolving and its pretty easy to go from other legal fields to the big firms.

2. The legal market is definitely headed for some changes. I had a few recruiters disagree with this sentiment and they believed that once the market picks up, the legal profession and big firms in particular will go back to their old ways (i.e. salary wars, bonus wars, etc.) to recruit top talent. But most of them thought that the recession forced many clients to look closer at their legal bills and question the wages of first year associates, essentially asking why they were paying hundreds of dollars an hour to train recent graduates without any experience. The profession already has seen some big changes as big firms have cut/froze salaries, cut bonuses, shifted from lockstep to merit-based raises, and the likes. However, many big firms haven't cut 1st year associate salaries from (the almost ridiculous) 160K. So I think the days of easy bonuses and raise for associates is gone for the near future, but the pay is still very good.

 

I fully endorse SamFisher's sentiment. The problem with the law market is high over-saturation. Law schools, unlike current medical schools, did not decide, at one point, that there would be too many lawyers. Instead, being prone towards capitalism, more and more accredited law schools popped up. These days, if you really wanted to get a JD you can, albeit it from a no-name school.

The massive amounts of you debt you are taking on versus the amount of money you will make is just not worth it. While the ceiling for a 1st year is around $160K, you need to determine the probability of you landing such a position (not saying you aren't capable). The ultimate truth, like anything else, is that if this is your passion or high interest, then go do it and figure out the rest along the way. BUT, if this is jsut a whim because you think it'll make you money or lead to a good lifestyle...believe me, having a job you don't like regardless of the money will make you hate your life.

 

I think you should take the advice we are giving you and think about it, but before making a final decision, you need to just think about your personality, goals, and your life.

While the legal market is pure trash at the moment, and everyone from 1Ls to associates with 5+ years of experience are having trouble finding jobs, I wouldn't have made a different decision even if I had known this was going to happen for a variety of personal reasons.

First, pursuing a higher education was really important to me and from a young age (entering high school I should say), the legal profession intrigued me and I knew I wanted to be a lawyer. As the son of immigrant parents, my success in my educations makes my parents happier than any big paycheck I can bring in.

Second, many people from my background don't have the opportunity to pursue education and many people from the neighborhood I grew up in don't even graduate from high school. So rather than stick with the norm and left myself go down that same path, I made the decision to try and better my life.

Third, I don't need to have a fancy car or house to be happy. All I need is my lady by my side, Rockets games/NBATV, and a decent place to live. So I don't need to chase money and subject myself to long years of unhappiness at big firms to buy expensive things. Plus, even if I start out at 60K-90K, it is definitely much more than if I had decided not to pursue law school/higher education.

So taking these things into account, I am happy and have no regrets about my decision. Ultimately, even while almost everyone hates law school, I can even say that I have actually enjoyed my 1 1/2 year thus far. I am involved/in charge of a lot of diversity programs so that I can help people who come to law school after me (even though I never did anything like this in high school or college), I study, but not to the point where my life is miserable (screw top 10%-15%, I will be 25 when I graduate law school so I have my whole life to live and go to big firm if I want to chase the money), and I have made great friends from the organizations I am involved in.

So ultimately, you should really just see what will make you happy and then decide to go to law school because it is a lot of work, expensive, cut-throat, and if you came to chase the big bucks, you will hate the 3 years here more than most people normally do.

 

Legal market right now is not just bad, it is freaking bleak.
Nobody can tell what's going to happen in a year or two beyond wishful thinking.
Even the IP firms are not hiring science kids with decent law school gpa, this is how bad the market is for the newbies. This "overcapacity" will take sometime to be absorbed. I don't think you can spin it by saying this is the best time to be in Law School and take out 120K loan. I know some Harvard kids are working in MA license agencies for peanuts not by choice. Get into a T14, and make sure you stay on the top in law school, aint going to be easy, but law is not for p*****s anyways.

 

You actually believed what big firm partners said during a summer program? Really? You must also believe that you are the greatest lawyer the firm could possibly land, and you'll get taken out to lunch every day. I don't know if I should keep reading but . . .

You're citing recruiters for your second argument? Really? Whether you disagree with them or not, you are citing recruiters? I'd rather you cite abovethelaw.com before recruiters. You're talking to the wrong people to form your opinions.

Either way, I thought there would be some big changes ahead but it doesn't look like that will happen. The legal field has been exceptionally stubborn. Only the crap firms that mismanaged will be changing things. I think lockstep will remain and salaries are already unfreezing. There won't be any salary wars, or recruitment as high as it was, because those were based on false profits in the economy, but just like investment banking went to its old ways, so will law firms. Unless legislation drastically changes the i-banking game, which we can only wait and see.

 

Maybe I should have clarified a bit more about the sources of my information. I actually had an amazing in-house gig last summer and all the partners and recruiters I meet we close, personal friends of the attorneys I was connected most with their my job. So they weren't like the 98% of meetings between law partners/recruiters and law students were you are given BS fluff about how the firm cares about diversity, they don't want grades but a real person, etc, etc, etc. Most of the topics I discussed with these partners/recruiters I wouldn't even think of discussing with others who I have meet in networking or just other events. Unlike most of the partners/recruiters you cite (and correctly I might add), these people had no reason to lie or not be completely truthful. So like I said, it is just there opinions and you have to take it for what is worth, but I tend to agree that its better to be in school right now than out in the market trying to find a job. It is not just the legal market that is hurting, it is every market from retail on up that is suffering. I have friends from college with all types of degrees who are struggling to find a job.

And as for the second argument, I said some of the partners/recruiters disagreed about the legal market changing while some thought it was headed for drastic change. And like the above, this is just there opinion and no one can really predict how these are going to turn out. You believe that things will go back to the way things are and that the market hasn't really changed that much, but when some of the most prestigious firms (who mostly target T14 talent) are changing from lockstep to merit based compensation, I would say that is forecasting some big changes. But like I said about, these are all just opinions.

 

Well buddy/clutchfan/fellow lawyer, I don't mean to pick a fight, but I think you are being naive. The information you presented makes things worse. Do you know how much ass-kissing the big firm partners do for the general counsel? They better be "buddy buddy" with the client and therefore you are their new buddy as well, or they won't get the client's work. The big firm partners do this much more smoothly with a client than with a summer associate. They have to balance their sunshine with a perspective on reality, some partners will lean with one side more than the other - all the while they have to speak confidently because they are selling a service.

You are right that it is all very complicated, its better to be in law school than searching for a job (because why take from graduated law students with no experience and lots of rust, when you can have graduated students fresh from law school and you can test with a summer program. And yes, nobody knows for sure what's going to happen. But I haven't seen many prestigious law firms doing these things? Perhaps we have different opinions on what is prestigious. Latham yes, Alston & Bird no.

Now for my opinionated commentary:
In my opinion, killing lockstep is a bad idea. Killing lockstep may work but... why not have lock-step as the base salary and reward merit based on bonus? But I could see firms trying to incorporate it. In my opinion, merit based doesn't work, because it would all be politics and your salary would be based on how many partner jokes you laugh at, even more so than it already is. It wouldn't be based on merit very much. But I could see firms trying it.

Bringing down 1st year salaries, this is only a short-term answer, most firms won't (shouldn't) do it. Because those who do will basically be putting up a sign: "Talented Law Students Need Not Apply." All the talent will go to the 160k firms. And then... what client would want no-talent service? Right now law students have NO LEVERAGE. It might as well be zero. This will not be the case in a few years. So I see this as only a short-term answer.

Death of the billable hour? This question I really do not have an answer for. It's very complicated.

None of these efforts seem to be catching on. Other people say that we are on the brink of a revolution.

Here is the best information you'll find on big law firm management: www.adamsmithesq.com About 50% of its readers are partners/management/in-house.
My managing partner told me to read this. This is where big law goes for their advice.

Now back to topic, I think you are being naive because the perspective big law firm partners gave you is biased no matter what. They will not give you any doom and gloom. If their firm is hurting bad, they will not tell you that because no client would give work to a firm that is on the ropes. According to them, they are "weathering the storm." Unless I am misunderstanding your relationship to these big firm partners, then everything I said above is true.


But here's the good news. You have a big firm job waiting for you, and I don't even know your grades.

 

Sam, just out of curiosity, are you still working in the legal field?

I personally am very happy to not work as a lawyer anymore. I feel like unless you really think you will enjoy that kind of work, don't do it.

 

No worries about picking a fight. We are just discussing a topic to give a fellow Clutchfans a perspective on the legal market. I do think you have mistaken the relationship and circumstances of my lunch/dinner conversations with the partners. Like I mentioned, the comfert and honestly level was to a point whether I asked them very controversial questions regarding diversity and their firms, etc that I have never even thought of asking the other 100s of partners I have met during other casual/networking events. I understand your skepticism because the relationship between law students and big firms is a frivolous courtship. I mean I finished OCI a couple months ago and I told every firm I wanted to work in that city b/c _____ (fill in the blank w/ a BS reason) so no reason to think firms won't lie back.

But like I said, at the end of the day, it is up to the individual to look at his/her circumstances and decide whether to go to law school. If your main reason to go to law school its to work in one of the big firms, then I would suggest that your really get caught up on what big firm life is really like. Most people only see the six figures, luxury cars, and nice suits. What they don't see is the divorce rates, lack of family time/personal life, stress, alcoholism, depression, etc. Why anyone would want to punish themselves like this is beyond me. I know I will be there for 2 years and then running for more greener pastures. :grin:

 

Wait, are you telling me that the reason you won't reveal your relationship with these people is because you got your in-house job through a family and/or a friend's connection, rather than based primarily on your grades or character, and therefore partners and recruiters would address you with candor?

 

First in my family to get a degree and first to pursue graduate school. I came into law school knowing 0 lawyer. My summer job for last year requested cover letter, writing sample, and transcript, so grades had something to do with it.

The real reason I got my job is because I have been blessed with a beautiful mouth piece. All I need to do is get to the interview, the rest is a done deal. :grin:

 

My friend, that was over a decade ago. Tuition at most schools has increased manyfold since, as has the competition for jobs. Not a good equation.

 

something about those two...

i got you bro. totally feelin it lol

 

Graduated from UT Law last May. Working at a firm right now mainly to pay down debt.

It's a tough time right now to be entering the profession. I got extremely lucky in that I accepted my offer 2 months before the market started going down the tubes and the firm I accepted at only deferred us until November.

I'm more worried in my ability to transition out of the firm life and, maybe, even change what type of law I practice after I leave. I'm still relatively young (25) so even if I stay for 5 years, I'll be 30 when I leave. I'm just not sure what opportunities will be available at that time.