Somali axe man attempts to kill 75 yr old Danish cartoonist for Muhammad cartoon

Then you should see how backwards your logic is, that on page 7 of the same dialogue, you are still attempting to justify the morale of a universally offensive act like murder with a "sort-of-offensive-to-my-culture" drawing.

Talk about playing into the opposition's hands. This is exactly what Ottomaton said, and you refuted. Islam has become a vessel for POLITICAL baggage. Leave history, politics in the classroom, especially when expecting to gain intellectual ground. And big surprise, it is the mysterious and deviant 'west' who is blamed for Somalia's civil war and the Arab world's lagging development in almost every measurable capacity. Internal problems have internal causes.

We saw it coming too. If there are ANY others out there who think like you do, I'm surprised the Arab world gets anything accomplished. You clearly decide how you feel about a issue with political reactionary emotions and little rational construct. You are a great example of how the Arab world got backwards: by trying to fit the argument to their conclusion.

Read above. Unbelievable.

My ten year old nephew pulls the exact same cop-out whenever he gets in trouble, and is unable to rationalize his way out of culpability.

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Dear Mathloom, I would advise you to never take the LSAT. You have a very weak, constantly-relative foundation for logical analysis. This is ironic, because you are very eager to engage in these types of discussions.

 

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What you described isn't intolerance. Do you want people to openly accept anything you say or do to them? "Please, go on and disrespect my beliefs, no biggie!" I don't think anyone is expecting others to do the same. Is society really coming to the point where we want others to just accept disrepecting and offending actions? Is it really to the point where you are trying to condemn people for feeling negatively about such actions? Again, I am not supporting any violent actions in any way.


Apparently you aren't familiar with human nature. People have rioted and died over much less. One of countless examples I could throw at you is what happens after many European soccer matches. There's riots quite often. These are cultured, civilized people here. Yet, they still do things like that. Why?

As far as the google image goes, prove to me that it is in place because some Muslims gathered together and threatened Google.

 

I can't speak for him, because he has his own beliefs. But, you are the maker of your own fate. I personally would not want him to live in fear. Yet, it was quite obvious that was going to happen when he chose his course of action. It has nothing to do with Islam. It has to do with pissing off a large number of people. There's obviously going to be extremists and crazies in there. I don't know how you equate what a few lunatics did to condemning a religion of billions. Unbelievable. Remind me next time someone of your faith does something crazy to condemn your entire institution.

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Again, I can't speak for him. However, it seems that everyone here is saying that the Somali deserves to be punished for what he did. It's not excusable at all. No one should defend him. Yet, you keep saying that everyone is trying to excuse his actions.... Give me a break.

 

Google has already issued a statement saying it is a bug in there search engine indexing.

Apparently no one cared to even check WHY it does that. They were all more than glad to jump the gun though.

 

Who says violence is considered the appropriate response?!, its a possible human reaction. As I said before, history shows us to be an aggressive race, its easy to sit back and talk about free speech sitting in a country like America. Go to a 3rd world country where your government doesn't give a crap about you and where gathering food is a daily struggle. These people have not evolved like the society in the West, when their country progresses so will they (its a cycle, when a country falls so does its people). A person of any race/religion/country that feels threatened and is frustrated will react more unpredictably.

Drawing the line is no easy task, but it's done in the financial system, for a reason, without it people will take advantage.

Everything should be done in moderation, freedom of speech is great and should be promoted, but restrictions and consequences should exist in certain circumstances. The way the media portrays Muslims there will be a generation that will grow up in this hate speech, the result of this will be seen in the future. We keep repeating the same mistakes.

 

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1. They don't have to. It's about respecting the integrity of the 1+ billion people who follow that religion. By your logic, no one should respect anything. Hmm, why should our country respect the UK? Why should Russia respect Georgia? Hmmm.... no one should respect anything, right??

2. This statement is so ludicrous I wont even begin to address it. But again, it is the religion of 1+ billion people. That warrants some merit at least.

3. No one should care about the rules of a religion. It is simply being courteous and respectful. Something our society teaches us from the moment we start growing up.

4. That is not what people think. You don't have to like other people's views. You don't have to believe in them. You can even think they're crazy. But, openly chastising them because of it and disrespecting them is never the way to go about it.

 

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I wonder how you can honestly sit there and say that. So, do you consider yourself a better man? That's incredibly arrogant of you. Does the fact that you don't believe in a religion make you greater than him? More successful? A better parent?

Is your thinking and philosophy so much better than his? Please, if you believe so, do explain.

 

If it has nothing to do with Islam, then how do you explain that the vast majority of terrorist attacks nowadays is committed by lunatics "in the name of Islam"?

Mathloom and others, including you, continue to relativize what the guy did by putting blame on the cartoonist, as if violence was some inevitable consequence of what the cartoonist did. It's a consequence of the messed up belief system of the lunatics who want him dead, nothing else. The cartoonist did nothing wrong. Maybe his cartoons were offensive to some or many, but that's why they are cartoons. And the reaction of the Muslims shows how much truth there is to his cartoons.

NSFW in prudish countries:

http://www.wulffmorgenthaler.com/default.aspx?id=174b6e38-b87e-4e90-b005-97980afb94ec

This cartoon (from a Danish cartoonist) could be considered offensive to devout Christians. Have you heard of any death threats against the cartoonist?

 

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It's still a relatively small percentage of people! Can you honestly tell me it has nothing to do with socio-economic background? When's the last time you heard of a well educated, properly cultured, successful Muslim committing such acts? It's not the religion. It's the circumstances surrounding the people who believe in the lies that terrorists circulate. The same sort of things were going on in Uganda and the whole Sudan region. Terrorists used brainwashing tactics to gain control of young males as early as ten years old to fight for their cause. They were following some whack job who portrayed himself as some sort of deity. He claimed that he had a divine message to basically commit genocide against an entire nation. Those young males who were vulnerable/poverty stricken believed him. They committed horrendous acts across Africa. It's basically the same thing. Terrorist camps brainwash younger male teens to join there cause. Because the terrorists themself have a flawed belief of the religion, those "followers" gain the same wrong beliefs. My whole point in all that was pretty simple. You seem to equate that in general terrorism is based on Islam. It's offensive because as a born and bred American who happens to be Muslim, I know for a fact that those people don't follow the same religion as I was raised to follow. In general, most American muslims I have met are incapable of ever doing anything like that. Why do you try to define us by the actions of lunatics from 3rd world countries?

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You still don't get it. No one is blaming the cartoonist. You're saying the same exact damn thing as me. I agree that the people who want him dead are crazy and have messed up belief systems. They just happen to be Muslim. So, they are acting on their crazy and messed up belief systems by supposedly saving the name of Islam. It isn't Islam though!! The other 1.2 billion people who did not act out against this guy will all tell you that. The Somali guy "believed" in Islam, so that is how he chose to act out in his craziness.
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Take this article for example. First hit I got on google. The man killed his wife in the name of Christianity. Is that what the view of general Christians is? Are they all lunatics because of what a few do? The answer obviously is no. The majority doesn't do things like that. Nor do they believe in things like that. So why would you tie them to that?

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/world/archives/2004/12/24/2003216502

 

Hamza:

Let's be a little more concrete here. When you (and Mathloom) say you want respect for the followers of Islam, what do you really want? What would constitute respect from non-muslims, in your estimation?

Allow you to worship as you choose? In that capacity you already have my respect. Follow the rules you choose to follow yourself? If you want to be respected BECAUSE you ARE Muslims, that is not going to happen. No matter Christians, Jews, whatever you are, I would say I respect them IN SPITE of their faith (not because of it), and thus I allow them to live uninterrupted in whatever way they feel compelled. Truly, this means uninterrupted. Let the nations that swear by Islam fail or flourish by it. So far, they are not flourishing.

Wanting to worship the god of your choosing in privacy is one thing, but wanting everyone you argue with to see the exact same thing you see and to adhere to the same restrictions you do is called pushing your beliefs on someone else. That is the very definition of intolerant, as the behavior of those racist Americans from your childhood is the very definition of pathetic.

 

Very easy. The underwear bomber. Also, a bunch of German Muslims who wanted to commit terrorist attacks in Germany and who got arrested just before they were ready to start.

I am asking you to explain the statistical correlation between (attempted) acts of terrorism and the religious assocation of the terrorists.

I am not defining you as anything, but I see that you and several other Muslims try to relativize and excuse the acts of these lunatics ("the cartoonist is an equally big *******", "the lunatic is a victim of circumstance because he is from a poor country", "it has nothing to do with the religion") and try to blame everyone else ("the cartoonist should have known", "he abused his right to free speech").

Every Muslim poster in this thread other than BrownBeast99, if I remember correctly, was blaming the cartoonist.

That's an easy cop-out. When the actions become indefensible you just go "oh that's not Islam"..."he says he's a Muslim, but he isn't."

I am not disputing that there are lunatics in any religion, and lunatics who are not religious. I am just as disgusted by a Christian extremist or Jewish extremist as by an Islamic extremist. But again, the overwhelming majority of terrorist attacks nowadays is committed in the name of Islam. That is a fact.

Also, I don't see scores of Christians flocking to the streets because of the cartoon I posted above. I do remember reports of scores of Muslims rioting and screaming death threats because of cartoons, though.

I do think that Islam has a particular problem. And as long as moderate Muslims do not acknowledge that and instead try to blame everyone else, they will not be able to tackle it.

 

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Ok, in all fairness, no one should expect respect. That's the way the world works. For what it's worth, I find that Jesus cartoon just as annoying as the other one. I promise I am not completely naive. But, I think what was done by the cartoonist was only done so to invoke a response to prove a point that all Muslims are intolerant. So, the guy does something insanely controversial that everyone knows will lead a group of extremist lunatics to act out. They do. Now, everyone can associate their actions with a religion that has a billion followers. Therefore, we are all subject to being portrayed as intolerant and crazy. When in reality, while most of us were offended, we realized that other people don't have the same beliefs. So, we let it go. Even though none of us did anything, we suffer the consequences. All because of one douchebag cartoonist and some crazy zealots. Do you see now what I mean?

Btw, the above bolded part is exactly my definition of everything.

 

Where do you get the all from? And how do you read the cartoonist's mind? You are accusing him of a motive that might not have been his motive. And even if, that's his right.

It should not even have been insanely controversial. If it is insanely controversial, that means your religion has a problem with tolerance and with free speech. Case in point.

No, but every Muslim poster on this thread other than BrownBeast99 has displayed his intolerance and his lack of understanding or respect for the concept of free speech.

How are you suffering from consequences? Nobody is assuming that all Muslims would want to go and kill the cartoonist. However, it seems apparent that many Muslims (I don't know what percentage) try to relativize and excuse his actions and prefer to lay blame at the cartoonist himself, or are even happy that he has to fear for his life.

 

I shouldn't have said one time. Again, I'm speaking about the general mass here. Not a few instances. The general mass of Muslims living in western countries do no such things.

I'm still not excusing anoyone! I don't understand how you fail to see that. Those lunatics have no excuse. They are as guilty as guilty gets. They're going to get what is coming to them under due process of law. I'm not disupting that. No one else deserves blame. Crazy Somali guy should be locked away forever for what he did. I was just mentioning that I think the cartoonist is an ******* as well. I know it's hard for you to understand this. But, what he did wasn't something that was just offensive. It was a slap in the face of every single normal hard working, good Muslim in the world. It was like saying "F*** you" straight to all of their faces. Maybe you don't think he's an *******, but other people have the right to believe so.

Again, not blaming the cartoonist for being a victim of attempted murder. All I'm pointing out is that he knew what he was getting himself into with the number of lunatics out there. Just the fact that he had a panic room in the first place proves that. The lunatics are wrong. That's why they're the ones going to prison!!

So are you really going to sit there and tell me that every single one of those billion Muslims are all like that?

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I'm not disputing your first statement. It's a fact.

Again, you can't relate the same example to Christians. You keep portraying it as just a cartoon. While it is just a cartoon to you and I, it means so much more to other people. Why you can't accept that is beyond belief.

I agree on the last statment too. I in fact said that myself in the last post. The religion itself isn't the problem though. The problem is the people using it and the capacity they are using it in. The fact is that people are misusing it for reasons that moderate Muslims don't agree with. There is obviously need for reforms.

 

I do see what you mean, but I must disagree on a couple points:

1. I do not think the cartoonist did this to intentionally provoke any response from anyone other than a paycheck from his employer. Should he have been prepared for a negative reaction from the subjected? Sure. Should he have expected the lunatic attempted axe murder? Only if he was taking into account that Muslims specifically are by in large, impulsive, reactionary, irrational, politically-vengeful, and violent.

2. The same fallacy keeps being committed by yourself and Mathloom. I have bolded the part I feel best exemplifies your oversight. We are to expect lunatics to respond? Again, only if we are considered that it is THE ISLAM, and not any other religion, that is being insulted. There IS a divide between the religion Islam and the political grouping of Muslims, but the followers themselves are the ones who cannot keep this distinction unadulterated. This all boils down to circumstantial, social, and economic problems in predominantly Muslim nations, but these highly relevant questions do not address how political problems have seeped into religious problems.

There have been a few times in this thread where I wanted to defend you and say "He hasn't said anything like that, You are confusing him with Mathloom", but the reality is that although your tone is different, you are both harping at the same wound. The wound has nothing to do with Islam, except that professed moderate muslims like yourselves have conflated cultural quandaries with personal standards of ethics and behaviors. You argue that anyone who offends Islam should expect an adverse reaction (and fail to define exactly what extent of reaction is ethically justified). This is equivalent to applauding when the planes hit the twin towers (which the majority of the muslim world did) and arguing that America should have expected it for its opposed stance on Islam, or more specifically because of its Pro-Israeli stance and defense.

 

If you take my posts as some kind of gauge for Islam, good for you lol I certainly don't claim to speak for Islam or Muslims around the world.

There is no excuse for his actions, as much as you like to make it seem that way. I'm just outlining the probable chain of events which led to him doing what he did. (edit: talking about the axeman, not the cartoonist.)

Why is it so difficult for you to understand this? The Somali guy should go to jail, whether ni Denmark or Saudi Arabia. Taking the law into your own hands is not acceptable behavior. But for me, from the outside looking in, I'm happy that the guy who made a mockery of the law will regret his actions. Because I believe his actions, though legal, to be wrong.

If it's still not clear to you: my position and your position on the axeman is the same. My position on the cartoonist and your position on the cartoonist are different. My comments are more relevant to a thread dedicated to the cartoons rather than one dedicated to attempted murder. So just to put an end to this: I think the cartoonist is wrong for doing what he did, saying what he said, and behaving the way he behaves. I believe this kind of behavior must be abolished from society because its only goal and spirit is to erode relations between Muslims and non-Muslims and I am against that. Who the hell does this guy thinks he is "testing" the "immigrants"? Who gave him the right and how dare he complain when his method of doing so was offensive, unproffessional, proposterous and unwarranted.

Don't think there's anything else for me and you to discuss. Thanks for the conversation anyway.

 

Most people in this thread even said it. He did so to prove that Muslims are intolerant. Please remind me, what is the purpose of a political cartoon again? So again, he proved that an entire race is intolerant because of small percentage of extremists. We are now all thrown in the same boat as them.

You're really something else buddy. That is not what it means at all. Yes, it was controversial. When you attack the belief of a mass of people, it is controversial. Perhaps you should read a dictionary. Also, you seem to be confusing tolerance and approval. In addition, controversy and tolerance aren't as linear as you seem to be making them out to be. Just because we believe it is controversial does not make us intolerate. The cartoonist said what he wanted to. The general Muslim population tolerates that and let it go. Did they accept it? No. Did they like it? No. Are any of us in this thread telling you that free speech is bad? No. Does that mean we're going to sit here and applaud him? Absolutely not. That doesn't even matter though. You can do whatever you want. No one has to like it. But then, you sit there and wonder why an entire religion feels spited because of it. And when they feel that they were disrespected, you try to paint them as intolerate. Give me a break.

I perfectly understand what it means. One of my favorite quotes comes from Voltaire when he said, "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." I definitely respect freedom of speech. What I don't respect is what that guy did. You all keep pointing out that he had the right to do it. I understand this. We all do. But, just because he had the right to do it does not make it right that he did it. That doesn't mean that I think he or anyone else should be a banned from doing it. I just think it's quite tasteless.

Really now? No one is associating us with the extremists? Ok, buddy. You keep using the word "relativize", but I fail to see the context. What am I trying to make it relative to? I've been saying for like 4 pages now that I don't excuse his actions in any way whatsoever. I am not placing blame on the cartoonist either. No one deserves to have people attempt to take their life away. I also don't wish the fear and struggle he has to live with upon anyone. I still think the cartoonist is an ass. That's my opinion. Welcome to freedom of speech 101!

 

To parody. Or emphasize. Not to prove anything. If Muslims are seen as intolerant, they are the ones who proved that.

 

Your example at the end assumes America did something wrong btw. Also, you should expect a violent reaction to these actions - that is not IDEAL, but it is reality. It is a factual statement, not a goal or a standard we think should be upheld. We do not believe, through Islam or personally, that free speech which offends us should be punished by eternal fear. This is NOT what I am saying. I am saying that, at this point in history, this is what happens.

But more importantly, to respond to your entire post:

Does this sound like the person you are describing? I didn't realize cartoonists suddenly have the competence and authority to test immigrants.

 

Thanks for your post. I am not saying at all that one billion Muslims is like that.

But - I do think that the part I am quoting here brings us to the core of the problem: "It means so much more to other people". I understand that. However, now, here it comes: I am sure there is something that means "so much more" to certain groups of people every single time someone says something. Every cartoon is offensive to different groups of "other people". Every day, someone makes fun of Jesus on Western TV stations. Maybe sometimes it goes to an extent that the Catholic church or one of their bishops or whatever would state some protest about it, but nobody really cares and that's about it.

But it just seems that followers of Islam get offended much more easily and seem to have a much stronger desire to push their beliefs upon others.

To give you an example, I remember from when I was studying in Bonn, which was the German capital at the time, and there was a reception given by a German government member. People from countries all over the world and all religions were invited. Someone from a Muslim country (I think it was Iran) demanded that no alcohol is served to anyone. Look, nobody forces the guy to drink alcohol. However, he was trying to force his way of living on everyone else, despite being invited as a guest! I know this is just an anecdote, but it is in line with many personal experiences I have had. I have been using the same taxi service to the airport (two Turkish drivers) in Munich for a few years (and I fly all the time), so I have been spending a lot of time talking to them. They are really, really nice guys (and very reliable) and have been living in Germany forever, but when they start talking about politics, I cringe. They make no secret of their hate for Jews and Americans. When one of them told me that he took his little daughter (4 years old or something) to a demonstration against Israel and the USA and she shouted "Death to Bush" and he was so proud of it, I was like OMG. To be fair, the Turkish Muslims in Germany are a lot more ass-backwards than the Turks who live in the big cities in Turkey, but still. This guy is not an extremist, he would never be violent himself, but there is some sort of tacit approval of hating Jews and Americans that is just scary.

Back to the Danish cartoonist: It's not like he published his cartoon in a Saudi newspaper. He published it in some Danish newspaper. The guy is 70+something years old, he probably doesn't even understand how the cartoon made it all the way to some Muslim countries over the Internet. All he sees is how Muslims act in Denmark. I can see how Muslims could be offended if the guy deliberately chose to publish his cartoons in one of their countries, but he didn't.

I lived in Denmark for two years, about 2000-2002. Many Muslims in Denmark (and not only there) celebrated on the street when 9/11 happened. I hardly see any desire by a lot of Muslims in European countries to adapt to the culture and the rules of the country they live in, many don't even bother to learn the language after many years in the country (however, they are happy to get the social benefits). I am generalizing to some extent, there certainly are other examples, but the behavior of Muslim immigrants in European countries is vastly different from, e.g., the behavior of Asian immigrants. Almost every week, I read articles about "honor killings" in Germany where very conservative Muslim fathers/brothers kill their own daughter/sister because she was more open to a Western lifestyle or - God beware - had a non-Muslim boyfriend. That is downright scary.

Political correctness or not, there definitely is a clash of cultures between Islam and the rest of the world. And the Danish guy's cartoon did nothing else but highlight that fact. Whatever point the guy was trying to make, it got more than proven.