LiLStevie3, you are right in saying that Kobe had a big defensive advantage with Shaq, but Jordan had Pippen. Pippen was the better defender, and always got the tougher assignment. Guarding the other team's second-best swing-man made him look a lot better. You also say that Kobe had the luxury of coasting through 3 quarters because of Shaq's offense, but Jordan got to coast on the defensive end. There are too many factors to consider to make a strong call, but I still think that right now Kobe is stronger defensively, while Jordan had the offensive advantage. Oh, well. In a few years, when Kobe reaches his prime (or Shaq retires) we'll really get to talk about this in earnest, and we'll both have stronger support than "maybes."
Yes, you're right Drexlerfan22, but that was post-retirement, when Jordan wasn't as quick or explosive as he was pre-retirement. Pre-retirement, it was Jordan who was the defensive stopper, not Pippen. Once Jordan came back, it was obvious that he did not have the explosiveness or lateral quickness that he once had to shut down opponents. Also, Jordan's stamina wasn't where it once was, so it was put on Pippen to be the defensive stopper. But even post-retirement with Pippen, Jordan still did not have nearly the advantage Kobe has had with Shaq guarding the lane. I'd much rather have a 7'2" 350 pound giant camping in the lane behind me guarding the basket than a 6'7" swingman as a defensive stopper. BTW, a lot of times, Kobe isn't the one guarding the opponent's number one offensive backcourt option. You usually see Rick Fox taking that responsiblity, as he is a terrific defender, or if it is a smaller option such as Allen Iverson or Mike Bibby, you will see Derek Fisher, Lindsey Hunter, or Tyronn Lue when he was with them taking that responsibility. (Kobe did guard Mike Bibby sporadically in this year's Lakers-Kings series, and overall was quite effective when he had to, but nobody knows how he would have done if he would have had to waste his energy the entire series chasing Bibby around through screens.) As you said, it will be easier to make this argument, once Shaq retires, and Kobe has to shoulder the majority of the load.
Ok now this is getting absurd. First, all the Jordan comparisons are stupid in that the only thing they prove, even assuming that they have any value or truth at all, is that the 23 year old Kobe is not as good as the GREATEST PLAYER EVER AT THE HEIGHT OF HIS CAREER. Oh, well then he is no better than Paul Pierce, tracy McGrady, Cuttino Mobley, Richard Petruska or Dirk Minnifield. I suppose if Kobe played on a bad team and didn't win any championships but scored over 35 a game, like Jordan was doing at his age, he would be much better. I'm sure all the antikobes would be running around saying how great he is. As far as him coasting through 3 quarters and then turning it on in the fourth, that's just ridiculous. So if he started burning up the net in the First Quarter and then got no better when the game got on the line then he would be a better player? What about that John Elway, always letting his team get down so he could be a hero!! Please. Finally, I'm sure all the opposing coaches in the NBA design their defenses around shaq and just totally ignore kobe. I bet Byron Scott was like "Well, neither myself nor anybody has kept shaq from gong off in the playoffs for the last 3 years, however I shall design my defensive masterplan all around hiim; As for that Bryant fellow, we shall leave him undisturbed as he is clearly inferior to Jordan, and plans to coast in the first 3 quarters in any event." Silly nitpicky criticisms can be made about anybody. What about Shaq? Who the hell does he have to defend? Todd McCullogh? Aaron Williams? A broken down David Robinson? Kobe routinely defends the deepest postion in the NBA (sg/sf). Same thing with Jordan, he got to sit around and take half the game off while Pippen usually got the toughest defensive assignment. The point is not that any of these contentions are true, its that silly reasons can be made up to justify anthing.
OK, now you're just exaggerating everything I just said. First of all, I never said Kobe was not one hell of a player...in fact I think he is the most talented player in the league. That being said, I was responding to DrexlerFan22's comments about Kobe's defense being better than Mike's and how if Kobe was on the 90's Bulls teams instead of Mike, the same results would have occurred. Second of all, Mike did not play on bad Bulls teams when he was young; they were not near contender status, but Mike had the Bulls in the playoffs every year. Place Kobe on those teams, would he yield the same results? who knows. That's another thing, I never said that Kobe would wilt under the status of being the man, I simply stated that nobody has yet to determine if Kobe can carry his own team to greatness, given all the benefits that he gets from Shaq. If you doubt that Kobe benefits a great deal from Shaq, that is just being ignorant. And if you have watched as many Laker games as I have, you will see that in many games what I have said is true. When the game is on the line, there is noone in the league I would rather have with the ball other than Kobe Bryant. But during the 1st-3rd quarters, it does seem like he is coasting. Many of the shots that he buries in the 4th quarter, he just plain misses in the 1st-3rd quarters. If you are the superstar of your team, you can not let that happen. Again, I stated that it remains to be seen how Kobe would adjust to being the "man", I never said that he would not adjust. Another thing is, did I ever say that other teams ignore Kobe Bryant? No, again you are exaggerating. I simply stated that other teams design their defense focusing on Shaq and trying to slow him down. Their first priority when playing against the Lakers is not Kobe Bryant. If Kobe was the "man" of a team, he would have to go through what Allen Iverson goes through: people running at him doubling and tripling throughout an entire season. Did I say that Kobe would wilt under this? No, I simply stated that nobody can determine how Kobe will react to this. Regarding your comments on Jordan being able to rely on Pippen to be the defensive stopper, that is EXACTLY what I posted. I simply added that Kobe does the same thing with Rick Fox, Derek Fisher, and Lindsey Hunter. Although they are not the defensive player Pippen was, Kobe still relies on them frequently to defend the other teams top backcourt offensive option. I find you to be a very knowledgeable poster, and on many points I agree with you , but please stop taking my comments out of context. I agree, the Jordan comparisons are absurd right now, which is why I stated that it would be more accurate to make these comparisons once Shaq retires and Kobe has to shoulder the majority of the load.
Exactly. All great teams have multiple great players. No one player can carry a team (and Jordan didn't do it then either). People seem to forget that the Jordan-less bulls lost a whopping 2 more games than they had lost the previous year with Jordan. The year after that, Scottie had that very same team in the Eastern Conference Finals!! Just what load was Jordan carrying again? It wasn't all Jordan then, just like isn't all Shaq now. Kobe single-handedly carried the Lakers through the first few series this year. He carried the Lakers through Sacramento and San Antonio last year (look it up). And has single-handedly carried the Lakers through many close game in all 3 years of the playoffs. Great teams = Great Players
I didn't mean to imply that you said all those things, lilstevie3, I was just amalgamating all the Anti-kobeness into one pile of reasoning, but I should have been more clear. Secondly, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree about coasting. What about his infamous 56 point 3 quarter game? Further, if Kobe is coasting, then so was MJ. I mean, if he was so great than why were the Bulls always struggling through the inferior East during the playoffs and regular season? (Playing on the road vs. the west more often then not) Why didn't they win 72 games every year? Once again, you can make the same argument. Jordan could sit around and get torched by LaBradford Smith on occasion and then turn it on when he had to. I'm not saying that Shaq doesn't make Kobe better, of course he does. Having good teammates makes everybody better. I don't think that Kobe relies on the defense of Fox/Fisher/Hunter. I don't think either collectively or individually they match up to Scottie. Fox is slightly above average, I'll give you that. Fisher? he gets burned by every quick PG in the league. Just ask Bigstevie3. Hunter IMO got that rep bc his offense is nonexistent; anyway they thought enough of him that they shipped him out. Pippen on the other hand was awesome on d, one of the all time greats. Remember the finals game vs. Utah where they only gave up 45? They had him play the passing lanes and he just destroyed the jazz who don't make many mistakes. Anyway, that's beside the point. I just think that Kobe bashing is extreme and not always based on what he does on the court, its based on what his perceived attitude is while he does it.
yup i do those kinds of dunks spontaneusly... anyways....yelling at somebody happens all the time. it is much diffrent then punching a teammate in the face. verbally abusing your coach...when did he abuse his coach? jordan has heart and originality. everybody emulates parts of somebody elses game. kobe emulates ALL of jordans game and then some.
I agree that great teams have multiple great players, no doubt in my mind in fact. But do you think if the Lakers didn't have Shaq, would Kobe have had the same opportunities to "single-handedly carry the Lakers through the first few series this year"? I think not...it would have been very difficult with the Twin Towers actually focused on waiting for Kobe to drive, instead of having their hands full with Shaquille O'Neal, etc. The fact is that Shaq is the main cog of that team, Kobe Bryant is a sidekick. It remains to be seen how successful Kobe Bryant will be as the "man". Bottom line here: from '91-'98: with Jordan for 6 full seasons - 6 championships with a very rusty Jordan for playoffs and very small part of regular season - Eastern Conference Finals, without Jordan for 1 season - 2nd round of playoffs; regular season means nothing as the Lakers have proved this year
Thanks for clearing things up mav3434. BTW, I was not trying to compare Pippen to Fox/Fisher/Hunter. I was comparing Jordan's deferring some defensive responsibilities, etc. to Pippen with Kobe's deferring of many of the same defensive responsibilities to Fox/Fisher/Hunter.
Well, I posted this quite awhile ago, but I suppose I can post it again... Capital intrigue Collins' relationship with Jordan being tested Posted: Monday April 01, 2002 11:39 PM Updated: Monday April 01, 2002 11:59 PM By Jennifer Cooper, CNNSI.com Doug Collins had a rough week. It all started Wednesday, when he innocently speculated that he'd be surprised if Michael Jordan returned for the second year of his contract next season. That comment kicked off a media frenzy, even though Collins later said it didn't mean much. “I was surprised he played this year,” the Washington head coach said. “He’s surprised me a lot.” Nonetheless, the “Wizards organization” issued a gag order for Collins, telling him not to discuss Jordan's plans for next season with the media. Things got worse Sunday, when Washington lost to Dallas in a game critical to the Wizards' postseason hopes. Following the 110-103 heartbreaker, Jordan blamed Collins for not using him at point guard as much as he should have and said Washington's playoff fate is in the coach's hands. “[Collins is] going to have to earn his coaching ring to try to find my minutes and how to minimize my minutes and keep me in the focus of what's happening with this team,” Jordan said. Prior to the start of the season, there was a lot of speculation about just how the relationship between Collins and Jordan would work. With the Wizards sitting 2 1/2 games out of the eighth spot and fighting for their playoff lives, we're finding out where the balance of power lies. As if there was ever any doubt. In the article, Jordon complains about Collins not using him at point guard enough after a loss to Dallas. Didn't Jordon fire Collins early in his career for trying to make him play the point? He led the team this season with 1324 FG attempts. Hamilton was second with 984, Whitney was third with 595. He also shot a lower percentage than both of them. Jordon was also second in the Dallas game in FG attempts (4-14) in just 28 minutes! Does this sound like a man who wants to play point? Jordon then dumps the blame for the lost season on Collins, saying that “Washington's playoff fate is in [Collins'] hands” and “[Collins is] going to have to earn his coaching ring.” Since when does Collins have to earn his coaching ring? He is a great coach who Jordan himself hired. Jordan took all the credit when the Wizards seemed headed to the playoffs, and now that it's hopeless, their playoff hopes rest with the coach? Uh huh. Sure. And now the supposed "best player of all time" needs his coach to keep him focused? I didn't think focus was a problem for him before. Now it's Collins' fault he's not focused? Please.
Bottom line here: from '91-'98: JORDAN HAD PIPPEN AND A DOMINANT POWER FORWARD FOR EVERY CHAMPIONSHIP HE WON. No way can you tell me Kobe couldn't do the same thing if he took Jordan's place.
I highly doubt that if you put Kobe on those Bulls teams instead of MJ from '91-'98 that you will come up with 6 championships. Couple things here you fail to consider: 1. Jordan had this uncanny ability to make those around him better, Kobe does not have this ability yet. I mean, how many of the players that were decent or stars on the Bulls have you seen succeed once they ceased to play with Jordan? Scottie Pippen-other than the one and 3/4 seasons that Jordan went batty and experimented with baseball, he has been nowhere near the player that he was with Jordan (the player many considered to be second best in the NBA, although I would disagree; he was top 5 though IMO), Horace Grant- I don't think he was ever as effective as he was playing with Jordan in Chicago, Steve Kerr- not even near the effectiveness he had with the Bulls, Toni Kukoc, Jud Buechler, Luc Longley, Jason Caffey- see Kerr above, Caffey had a good spurt the first couple of weeks with the Warriors, but nothing since then. I mean this year, Jordan made Popeye Jones look like a serviceable power forward for god sakes. On those Bulls teams, Jordan could not have won without them, and they benefited a GREAT deal from playing with Jordan. Kobe has not had this effect on Fisher/Fox/Samaki Walker/Hunter/etc. This is my main reason for doubting your reasoning. 2. Jordan had this unquestionable desire to avoid failure. The man just did not like to lose. Kobe does not have this trait of Jordan's. This trait would have been essential to winning 6 championships in your last 6 full seasons. On top of that, Jordan was just a better player, which I think everyone will agree on, which is no slight to Kobe, considering the fact that MJ is the greatest player of all time. Of course, there's no accurate way of determining just how successful Kobe would have been, so this is basically all speculation. Also, I would not consider Horace Grant and Dennis Rodman to be "dominant". I reserve the word "dominant" for players like Shaquille O'Neal, Tim Duncan, Michael Jordan, Wilt, etc., not Horace Grant or the Worm. Don't get me wrong, Grant and Rodman were essential to the two Bulls 3-peats, but in no way were they "dominant".
The fact that he shot a lower percentage than both Hamilton and Whitney is pretty much expected. One, the man is 39 years old and coming back from 3 years of retirement, even Michael Jordan will show rust and age. Two, because of this age and on top of that, lack of other offensive options other than Hamilton, it is much tougher for Michael to get his shot off. If you are taking contested shot after contested shot, no way are you going to shoot a high percentage. The other thing is that you are not reading the article right. In the article, Jordan wants Collins to keep him "in the focus of what's happening with the team". This does not mean that he wants Collins to keep him focused. This means that he wants Collins to keep Jordan a part of what's happening with the team. I see no problem with that, considering that even at age 39, an age where players such as Hakeem Olajuwon, Patrick Ewing, David Robinson, Glen Rice, and Mitch Richmond (yes, I know that Robinson, Rice, and Richmond are not 39 yet, but you know the point I'm getting at) have showed very significant decline, he is still the best player on that team. I mean he played only about 3/4 of the season healthy, and the Wizards already won about 20 more games than they won the year before. This is at age 39 after 3 years of retirement ! Give the man credit where credit's due.
Every starter in the league coasts at one point or another in a typical NBA game with the exception of Ben Wallace. Kobe is amazing with his god given talents but will never surpass MJ due to his average-sized hands. Any other questions? <-- sarcasm
“[Collins is] going to have to earn his coaching ring to try to find my minutes and how to minimize my minutes and keep me in the focus of what's happening with this team,” Jordan said. Wow, when was the last time you heard a guy complain about getting TOO many minutes AND not being the focus of the team! Oh wait, scottie pippen on the rockets; great minds think alike!
OK, Mav3434 and Anderlicht, I would like to ask for your opinions on this topic. You put Kobe Bryant on those 90's Bulls teams instead of MJ, do they still win 6 championships? As you have read, I seriously doubt this. I think that it is either 1. thinking too highly of Kobe Bryant or 2. seriously discounting just how great Michael Jordan was.
The 23 year old Bryant maybe, maybe not. I would say he has as good a chance as the 23 year old Jordan. They definitely would have had a shot though. Bulls v. 1.0 Remembr, as somebody else pointed out, the 94bulls won about the same amount of regular season games with Pete Myers as the starting guard, and would have/should have/could have/may have at least made it to at least the conference finals if not for that silly foul vs. NY. I think the 23 year old Bryant on that team would make the team better than having the 23 year old Jordan. In 91 vs. LA; I would say 30% chance with kobe. I thought the lakers were going to win easy when I was watching it back then, but they folded quickly after they got down 2-1. But, I think that was the strongest finals opponent the bulls ever had. Did they manhandle them bc of Jordan or bc of the supporting cast? who knows. I would take old Magic over young Kobe though. In 92 vs. Portland, 50/50, two very similar teams. In 93 vs. Phx, Bulls all the way. That Phx team was not that great. The bulls got lazy and blew 2 home games when it should not have even been a series. So 23 yr. old Kobe takes home 1.9/3. v. 2.0 THese Bulls teams weren't as deep, but still had pretty good role players; at least as good/better than the Lakers have now. (Remeber, the had Ron Harper too, 3 years younger). The league is a lot weaker this time around too for whatever reason. 96 Bulls- The 72-10 team, Put Kobe on and maybe they don't win 72, I'll give you that. Do they still beat Seattle? Yeah, probably. IMO that was Rodmans greatest season ever and scottie was peaking. 97-98 v. Utah? Please, as all rocketes fans know, thesee are the same Jazz teams that the Rockets used to beat up on with regularity in the playoffs (94 Conf. finals 4-1; Chucky brown and charles jones in game 5 in 95), its just that the Rockets marquee players aged quicker (and burned brighter) than the Jazz' did. But the Bulls struggled against them both times. So I am not sure how to interpret this; does this mean Jordan's supporting cast was not that good and he willed an inferior team to victory? I don't know. I should assume that the Jazz can't even win a hypothetical title and give him both wins anyway, but I will say 1-2. So I think my scientific analysis gives him 3.8 wins in 6-years, for whatever thats worth which is probably zero. But, as we can all agree, the more important comparison is what the 27-35 year old Bryant does.
Glad to see your opinion mav. You mentioned their supporting cast several times in your post, which brings me to a point I mentioned earlier. Mike had an uncanny ability to raise the abilities of his teammates and make those around him better. Just look at how his ex-teammates have fared without him (Scottie Pippen, Horace Grant, Toni Kukoc, B.J. Armstrong, Jud Beuchler, Steve Kerr, etc.) Even this past season, Jordan made Popeye Jones seem like one of the better power forwards in the East (this is pretty amazing even in the Least, considering it's Popeye freakin Jones!). Kobe does not seem to have this ability yet. Put Kobe on the those Bulls teams, and I don't see the supporting cast performing at nearly the same level. Your opinion on this?
