The problem with that is who Jesus claimed he was. There was no confusion that he claimed he IS God. John 8:58 "I tell you the truth, before Abraham was born, I am!" (NIV) When he said "I am!" he described himself using the holiest name of God. No one had any doubt what he was saying and this ultimately led to his crucifixion. I've read the posts in this thread about faith, blind faith, and a leap of faith. We don't accept Christ in a blind faith, but in a child like faith. And I contend any religion, atheism, darwinism, etc. also require a leap of faith.
Doesn't a role for faith require a spiritual element? What is spiritual about Darwinian Law or atheism? Nothing that I can tell. Anyone have an idea? Yeah, nature is spectacular in beauty, power and majesty, but can't that be attributed to a Creator with whom we commune in spirit? There is nothing spiritual about random result either. Isn't faith more than going with an absence of information? It doesn't take faith to connect the dots-- which is what the evolutionists are doing except not all the dots are revealed and, perhaps, may not even be there. I guess atheists don't even see the dots. Caddman, I know you are not arguing for this... I'm just tweaking the argument.
THe moth "proof" is a horrible explaination of evolution because an organism doesn't evolve, populations evolve. The idiot that used this to argue evolution ended up hurting the arguement rather than add to the proof. And yes you are correct about the apes and man. We DON'T know the common ancestor, but we DO know many other things regarding evolution and are finding things out at a constant pace. My opinion of religion and science? Science is actually trying to find logical answers...religion tells you to just accept what they give you...and you are a heathen if you go against it. Can you tell me the new things the bible has scientifically discovered in the past 50 years? Why would you put your faith into something that has no intention of proving the truth, but reject something that is trying(trying very hard at that) to find it and has a ton of evidence proving it very likely. As I'm writing this a thousand different arguements are running through my head, but regardless of what I say, people will always stay with what makes them feel good and comfortable with themselves. It certainly is more comfortable thinking that we are being watched by an all powerful being and "HE" will protect us as long as we worship him. I guess all the people in the world trade buildings were all heathens...otherwise God would've protected them huh? Of course not. They could've all been devout christians...hell it could've been a church and nothing would have stopped it. Just like nothing would stop a giant asteriod and from smashing this planet into bits. I see firsthand tragedy EVERYDAY and its bad comedy to think that God is watching over us. I don't know...I'm all for trying to stop terriorism and renegade asteroids rather than just sitting around and praying for God to show up again, like he did 2000 years ago, and do something about it...Still somehow I think Jesus would have a little trouble with a billion ton asteroid...but hey! at least he would come back to life while we were all incenerated into asteroid dust.
TraJ, MadMax, and Caddman - <B>great posts</B>! Keep up the good work... Sorry, don't think I can buy the theory that "everyone is part of God". Hitler and bin Laden are supposed to be acting as parts of God? The Bible is not a science textbook. It has more important things to do. I can understand the frustration with wondering, "if God is up there, why can't he do more?" However, that's ultimately not our decision - we can't put a custom-made God up there. Many people of varying beliefs see our life on earth as a testing ground, or as preparation for something beyond. Maybe it was never supposed to be easy. Maybe God wants to see who is going to follow Him in this life. After all, we don't know what is beyond this life - there is of course the argument from skeptics and atheists that there is nothing, but otherwise it seems like many people, including lots of agnostics on this board, believe in ghosts and spirits. There seems to be an awful lot of belief in the supernatural, one way or another, on this board and throughout human history... Ultimately, as MadMax said, our own personal experiences with God will be the greatest proof we have. While I've struggled with doubts recently (Christians are human, and since I work in science I sometimes find myself feeling that the physical world is all there is), I have experienced great times of spiritual growth in the past and I can use those memories as my own "proof".
Achebe: I assume you would be just as "patient" with Ninja if he were to bash a particular race, or sexual orientation? Would it be okay to just let him "get it out" then?
You're showing your religion here. You believe truth can only be proven through science. Please understand that religion and science are neither mutually exclusive nor contradictory. Although scientific tools measure physical data, what would you use to quantify spiritual truths? quote link [excerpt]Billy Graham's daughter was interviewed on the Early Show and Jane Clayson asked her "How could God let something like this happen?" ( regarding the attacks on Sept. 11 ). Anne Graham said, "I believe God is deeply saddened by this, just as we are, but for years we've been telling God to get out of our schools, to get out of our government and to get out of our lives. And being the gentleman He is, I believe He has calmly backed out. How can we expect God to give us His blessing and His protection if we demand He leave us alone?" ...
Severe Rockets Fan, That is the kind of simplistic stuff that gets a little old after awhile. giddyup, I think you hit on something that is a real problem: the idea that faith is only for the religious. To say that an atheist or whoever else has no faith is to say they have no beliefs (at least as I'm using the word faith). One of the underlying ideas behind faith is belief. It's true that in our current English usage, faith can be defined as "belief that is not based on proof," but, as I've already said, I don't believe that is the definition of biblical faith. To press current English usage on Greek words of 2000 years ago is bound to give some problems. The Greeks only used one word for faith and belief. Sometimes it was used in the stronger sense of trust or confidence in a person or thing, but sometimes it was used in the same general sense as our word belief. Was it any less faith for Darwin to write The Origin of Species when, by his own admission, the fossil record at that time was incomplete (not to mention open to interpretation) and didn't prove his theory? He firmly believed that it would one day, but he recognized it did not at the time. There's was nothing about Finch beak variations that demanded the kind of evolution Darwin championed. In a sense, I believe in evolution-- if you're talking about small-scale stuff like that (I prefer the term variation, however). But if you're talking about life coming from non-life, that's a different story? Something that was once dead can't come back to life some have said (i.e. the body of Jesus), but something that wasn't alive before can spring to life? Sounds like faith to me. Will anyone ever be able to prove, using the scientific method, that evolution took place? Who is going to do the observing? You can look at all the data and say, "This seems to be the best interpretation of the data." Fine. But please do recognize that the data we have is open to interpretation. When push comes to shove, evolution on a large scale is beyond the scope of the scientific method. It simply can't be tested like the theory of relativity, or even evolution on a small scale. To believe in evolution on a large scale because evolution on a small scale has taken place is a leap of faith, it seems to me.
Seems like the postulation of a theory does NOT require faith. It's just the engagement of an idea. I guess I'm ascribing more to faith than you are. It's more than the leaping from the known to the unknown and back again. Does't there have to be a Godly connection? That may just be the difference between faith and belief.
Yes, "faith" is usually attributed to a belief in God. I use "leap of faith" for lack of a better term. I took God for his word and believe in him. When an evolutionist finds a monkey bone in the desert, they accept by a belief, or faith if you will, that the bone is pointing towards a common ancestor to chimps and man. They have to accept that from disorder came order. An atheist at some point has to make the jump to a belief or faith in no God.
If God created everything, then where else could they have come from? If God is everywhere, then where else could they be? Is it inconceivable that Hitler and bin Laden were here because they were supposed to be here?
faith - noun 1. complete trust or confidence. 2. firm belief especially without logical proof. (from the Oxford dictionary) Doesn't say it has to be a spiritual or religious idea.
I'm not really debating that issue. I know what Jesus said and I am familiar with John (I've read it more than a dozen time). For Christians, that should be your truth. That is your belief and your faith, but it's not mine. I don't want to argue the merits of Christianity because I think there are many. That wasn't the intent of my post. It was simply to clarify how I felt about beliefs for me. Well, I'm not really selling anything so that's ok. If God made everything, he also made Hitler and bin Laden. That is the reality. It is too difficult to explain in a post on a bulletin board nevermind the fact that I am woefully inadequate when it comes to expressing the beliefs of Eastern philosophy. Suffice it to say that there are many texts available (some older than the Bible) that explain it far better than I ever could. If you want to look, I'd be happy to help out with a list, but I'm not really here to debate Christianity or any religion. They all have value for me. Oh, but we all do. God is often defined as a male. God is spirit. There is no gender. Jesus is portrayed as a white sort of hippie. In fact, he looked probably much more like an Arab. God IS mythology because it is our way of trying to get a fix on something that is WAY beyond us. Saying we know what God is is, honestly, impossible. We do our best with the tools and images we've been given, but my guess is that we fall WAY short in our estimations. Everything else you said, I'm with you. It is based our own experiences and beliefs. You can't fake faith.
http://mb-soft.com/public/duality.html#hope Hey guys & gals, Read this when you get a chance, It really helped me with a lot of my internal conflicts with Science & Religion. S.J.
So faith is just a "firm belief?" (relative to belief) You are just crippling with these dictionary definitions... I think there are important meanings beyond this kind of reductionist definition. What does it say for "God?"
Jeff; forgive me, but I must take issue with this statement. In the time we've discussed the Bible, I think I know your position about as well as anyone besides you yourself, and what troubles me is that it seems like you are playing all sides against the middle. And what's worst, you are doing this cloaked in some universial connect the dots message: "I believe all religons lead to the same destination; I'm spiritual in a universial sort of way." It doesn't seem, Jeff, that you have any firm belief, except the absence of firm believe itself. Nothing matters in the end we all find the same place. My concern, Jeff -- and by the way it is honest concern -- is that in an attempt to be as non-judgemental as possible you have lost the very thing you seem to hold dear - faith in "God." And for all the wrong reasons. Correct me if I am wrong, but I remember you saying that what drove you from Christainty essentailly was that it pronounced absolute authority in all matters religious. Being turned off by that, now, you simply have replaced the "fatal mistake" of the Bible by prounouncing just the opposite all faiths are correct in so far as they don't contridict one another. You know, Jeff, as well as I do that that is a cop (sp) out. You might as well be an atheist if that's the case. ((((((Sorry in advance for this message.)))))
LOL, I knew this was coming... First, Hitler and bin Laden are living aspects of God. Their actions are their own. Second, I believe WE have more important things to do besides waiting for the Bible to do it's thing. Me loving all brothers and sisters goes a lot farther than what the bible can do. Personally, I think God would rather us learn His Love and practice it 24/7 with our brothers and sisters than sit in a building once a week singing His praises. God doesn't have an ego so He is not going to be concerned about who's praying to him or not. Think about it. Would you like to be immulated or praised? Back to the Hitler/bin Laden thing. I can appreciate your hesitation. I would too. But before I discount anything, I going to find someway to exprience it before forming a decision. And also, my ideas require a certain belief that we all are eternal beings and our few moments on earth is but a single star in this vast universe. So our actions here are not detrimental to our place in heaven. Now, you can look at the negative aspects of the past and present, or you can say: "The world is a better place because of Hitler because the world will not ever let that happen again." I wasn't sadden by the people who died on 9.11 because I know they are in heaven (where I really want to be). I did feel for their families though. But did you not feel our national pride rip through America after 9.11? That was cool to witness and experience, and much needed. I thank bin Laden for this. And I also know that the love of the world will be bin Laden's downfall. I'm not worried about it. The way I look at it, bin Laden's ideas ended the moment the first plane crashed into the WTC. These guys played an important roll in the growth of Global Christ Conciousness. And when I get to heaven I going to thank them for their effort. I then will turn around and shake Beamer's hand. RR
That simply isn't true and, quite honestly, you are simplifying a belief that I have said is more complicated than I can explain here on this board. If you want to have a long-winded conversation, this isn't the place. What I find troubling is that you feel the need to question my beliefs when I have pointed out that they really aren't up for debate and that I really just want to respect the beliefs of others here by not delving into them. You can't know my beliefs from here. I could not possibly encapsulate my spirtual ideologies on this BBS any more than I could give you the reasons why I like the music I do. Besides, there are plenty of people who have said it much better than I can in their books. You cannot possibly know the reasons behind why I have the faith I do so you cannot know that they are wrong. It is a tad presumptuous to make the leap that I have lost faith in God for all the wrong reasons. Truth is, I have FOUND faith I never knew I had. You are making the assumption that my conversion to a different set of beliefs somehow came casually or without much thinking. Quite the contrary. My guess is that I spend an awful lot more time thinking and reading about it than the vast majority of people given that most people begin to glaze over at the very mention of religion and spirituality. First, there were MANY things that "drove me" from the Christian CHURCH. Who said it drove me from Christianity? I still accept many of those beliefs as my own. There are still quite a number of Christian faiths who hold the same beliefs I do - Unitarians are a good example. They hold sacred the beliefs of all religions as do many other Christian faiths. It isn't as if I'm standing alone out here. There are huge organized communities of believers who feel the same way. Besides, what is more of a cop out...choosing a faith through careful study and honest inquiry or simply continuing to accept a faith you don't agree with? I find it amazing that my pursuit of spirituality has somehow been equated to a "cop out" or a way to serve everyone but essentially serving no one. There are millions of people who feel exactly as I do about the Christian faith, Buddhism, Hinduism, Judiasm, Islam, etc and religion in general. I didn't come about this faith lightly. It actually would have been easier to stay with the same faith I always had and keep going to church, but my heart and my soul were not in it. I am even more surprised that the choice to be open to the spiritual teachings of all religions can be equated with believing in nothing as if those of us who profess these beliefs just sort of float around thinking and saying whatever we want. Thanks for the concern, but it is not necessary. I know how I feel and I know what I believe and I don't really need help or worry or conversion. I'm doing just fine as I am.
YOU ARE RIGHT I do believe you've studied more than most in order to shape what you now believe. And it wasn't the right thing to say on a BBS. It was stupid and I'm sure hurtful to you. I apologize for that much. I still do believe most of what I said, but further arguement would be unproductive.
I'm not bashing just Christianity, I'm bashing the aspects of all religions in which reason and science seem to play no role. Sorry I didn't make that clear. I'm supposed to be a Buddhist, and I feel of all the religions, I can best relate to the Buddha's teachings, but some of the stories to me seem like philosophies simplified through symbolism, and not meant for literal interpretation. This goes for every religion. Perhaps its easier to be inspired by miracles and feats of bravery. edit: I hope you're not implying I'm a racist.
