perhaps we're forgetting that francis is still a pretty good player

The Rockets are just coming off one of the worst seasons in about 20 years, so why not blame our best player?

 

Originally posted by thacabbage
Timing: I do not understand why you are using Kobe Bryant as an example to debunk my point. If you read my inititial post in this thread, I cite Kobe Bryant as a mature player. You go on to argue that Bryant is more mature than Francis while I have already conceded that point. Why must it be only one thing or the other? "Steve Francis will never be mature because he isn't Kobe Bryant, winning championships." Is that your point?

My first response in this thread wasn't to your post but rather to the comparison of Steve's maturity in relation to Kobe's. A comparison of Steve to Kobe is poor on a lot of levels. If you'd conceded the point that Kobe was more mature you wouldn't have said this...

What is there for Steve to get together? You sound as if Steve constantly fights with teammates, is late to practice, and has been charged numerous times for drug use. How is Kobe so much more mature than Francis?

 

It is easy to be mature when you have the big fella on your team. If Steve was on the Lakers winning championships he would be considered mature. And YES, if Steve was on the Lakers instead of Kobe, they would still win....

 

Kobe Bryant's Career Stats

G- 414
GS- 267
MPG- 32.4
FG%- .458
3P%- .314
FT%- .827
OFF- 1.20
DEF- 3.40
RPG- 4.60
APG- 3.8
SPG- 1.29
BPG- .61
TO- 2.54
PF- 2.70
PPG- 19.8

Gary Payton's Career Stats

G- 947
GS- 941
MPG- 36.7
FG%- .470
3P%- .322
FT%- .729
OFF- 1.20
DEF- 3.00
RPG- 4.20
APG- 7.3
SPG- 2.13
BPG- .23
TO- 2.51
PF- 2.60
PPG- 18.1

Baron Davis's Career Stats

G- 246
GS- 164
MPG- 32.7
FG%- .421
3P%- .324
FT%- .629
OFF- 1.10
DEF- 2.70
RPG- 3.70
APG- 6.5
SPG- 1.78
BPG- .41
TO- 2.49
PF- 2.90
PPG- 12.6

Steve Francis' Career Stats

G- 214
GS- 212
MPG- 38.8
FG%- .439
3P%- .360
FT%- .793
OFF- 2.10
DEF- 4.30
RPG- 6.40
APG- 6.5
SPG- 1.54
BPG- .40
TO- 3.70
PF- 3.20
PPG- 19.7

---------------------------------

If numbers don't lie then the Rockets are very fortunate to have this guy on their team. Any talk of trading Steve is beyond comprehension. I just don't understand it. Steve Francis's career stats up against some of the better players(as some seem to lead themselves onto believe) seem to exceed or at least finish in the same domain as these other respective players' statistics. Steve Francis a selfish player? Whaaaaaaa? Steve's career average as a disher is as strong as Davis', up there with The Glove's and much stronger than Kobe's(even though most fail to realize the man starts at the two.) When it comes to points its clear that Steve can hang with the best of them. With a ppg average that is nothing wince at and a respectible FG% and a 3PT% that is sweet compared to those mentioned. Free throws? Kobe seems to be the only one that can find the bottom of the net better than Steve but not by much. How bout' defense? According to the stats Steve is a much more effective rebounder who isn't exactly a slacker when it comes to steals. Steve Francis is one of the better physical specimens playing the one. Im sure Streve will have people on him like this until he takes the team to the playoffs, which I haven't nothing against seeing we have the right as fans to criticize, but I myself am very grateful to have this guy on my team. No matter how big the mouth. His talent speaks louder to me. One more thing, someone said Steve francis isn't a superstar player..... lord. Steve Francis is on a lottery team at the moment. This quality may not be as apparent now but once this team returns next season it will be. Steve Francis IS a superstar player. If he isn't someone give me a good definition cause I just ain't following.

 

Originally posted by Varunan
On and off the court, Francis is committed to winning.

This is true because you said so? Three years in the NBA say he's maybe not so concerned with winning as he is concerned with other things.

The 2001-2002 Rockets were a horrible team without Francis. What was it, a 15 game losing streak? There's all kinds of stats, we all know them, and I don't remember them off the top, but basically they started off the season 5-1 with Francis with a frontcourt of Cato/KT/Rice (horrible) --- albeit to weak Eastern Conference compitition, and proceeded to go 7-5 until Francis went down with injury... then they lost 15 games in a row! You're persistent in your argument that Francis doesn't know how to play point, lead his team, etc., however, the point guard's primary fucnction is to make sure that the offense runs smoothly and the team wins games (winning games--- how else would you rate a star PG's success? i don't care if Francis has 6 or 12 assists in a game, I just care about whether he got the W or not--- something he seems to do). Francis does that, plain and simple.

Steve does what plain and simple? The Rockets are better when he's on the floor because he's the best player on the team, not because of his leadership. Steve hasn't shown to be the go to man on this team and he's not the first option late in games. How exactly is he leading? Another small thing that comes to mind in terms of leadership is remember back at the beginning of the season last year when a player was picked to speak to the crowd prior to the first game. Who was that player? Was it Steve? Nope, it was Kevin friggin Willis. Wouldn't the leader of the team be picked for that or shall we let the guy we just acquired 2 weeks before the season speak on behalf of the team? Small thing I know but I think it speaks to the leadership issue. Please save the examples from around the league, I can hear "Oh Derek Fisher, Derek Fisher!". On a team where Steve is supposedly trying to establish himself as the leader on this team it's peculiar that a guy acquired 2 weeks before the season is doing the talking for the team.

He leads his team, and he is an effective team leader.

Show it. Saying it doesn't mean it's so. Can you think of any other team in the league where a backup guard formerly of the CBA is your go to guy when you have an all-star on the floor at the same time? Slide over Kobe, it's Mike Penberthy's shot here buddy.

His teammates seem to love him (esp. Cuttino and Moochie as well as Walt, Rice and Cato if my hazy memory is correct on that one), and I see no reason to believe your speculation that Rudy may be covering up any beefs he has with teammates.

I don't believe I said Rudy may be covering up beefs. I said if there ever were beefs we're likely not to know about it because of Rudy's nature in handling players. I actually think some of the players on this team fear Steve more than they "love" him.

Give me a reason to believe that he's bad for the locker room and I'll consider it, but I'm not going to buy 100% speculation based solely on the notion that Rudy likes to keep these things hush-hush, so maaaybe he's doing that with Francis, esp. when Francis seems to have a very good relationship with his teammates.

Where are you getting all this from? My position on Steve's leadership has now evolved into him being bad for the locker room? Geez...

Now back to maturity... the man has garnered national praise (Sports Illustrated off the top) for playing with his migraines, knowing how important he is to his team. I'm no doctor but I do know that migraine's are suppossed to be a major b**** to joe schmoe, not to mention a professional basketball player.

What does this have to do with leadership? When you're hopelessly out of the playoff race would you rather your franchise player stubbornly play in meaningless games or do everything possible to get his situation in order for next season? I can see it as leadership if he were playing because we were in the race and needed him but playing when we were obviously out of it was just dumb. There is a difference in questioning his courage (which I certainly haven't done) and questioning his leadership.

THIS MAN DOESN'T SHOW MATURITY ON/OFF THE COURT??? Pleeease, give me a break... this articel sums it up best... Kevin Willis has been in this league for 17 years and even he said that Francis is truly earning the title of leader, both through talent/numbers and the intangibles/leadership/determination. Rudy T: "Brilliant", "a warrior". But then again, I'm sorry, I should value your opinion more than a 17 year NBA veteran or a man who's been in basketball for over 30 years as a player, coach, etc. who work with the man day in and day out.

What's your point? Does playing in pain show maturity or stubborness in this case? You really think RudyT is going to say "Damn that Steve should be at the Mayo clinic right now but he's young and dumb and doesn't understand what's important to this team right now." Seems you're more inclined to get all emotional here rather than pointing to anything meaningful.

You said that Francis has had 19-20 techs? Try 12 (and Kobe had 14 btw, Shaq 15 and Karl Malone 20 --- is Malone immature? how about Shaq?).

Um try 23. Second in the league.

Technical Fouls
Rasheed Wallace, Por 40
Steve Francis, Hou 23
Karl Malone, Utah 21
Chris Gatling, Cle 19
Allen Iverson, Phi 18
Shawn Bradley, Dal 18


And I remember that at least 2 of those techs were complete bull****... I'm talking about the 2 he racked up against Stockton/the Jazz which got him ejected while he was on his way to having a career night (so I really say he earned 10 at the most).

Could some of these bull**** techs be a product of Steve's reputation around the league for being a punk? Ya think?

Oh, and I remember you saying something about his techs not motivating the team... well what about that one against the T'Wolves (I think) with a minute left that supposedly fired up the Rockets and made them come back down 7 with a minute left to win it, no OT? Not a leader? Doesn't motivate?

I guess 1 out of 23 techs is a good ratio or something. Was it a backboard slap? Arguing with refs can show leadership and motivate teammates sometimes, I don't think it was a backboard slap.

When Francis was embarrassed at the Slam Dunk contest this year, did he cry about how they changed the rules with that stupid "imitate a past dunk" thing that ruined any chance he had to get into the next round when they gave him that 360 one hander (he can't even palm the ball)? No he didn't, he was very mature about it and said that those are the rules this year and he lost fair and square under those rules (as he should have said--- maturity).

You're telling me about Steve's maturity at a slam dunk contest? Can I prop Gerald Wallace now?

At the Draft Lottery this year, when Ahmad Rashaad was asking him about next season and talking about his injuries and this and that, what did he say? "If we don't make it to the playoffs next year, I know it's on me" (takes full responsibility for the team's record, sign of a leader, maturity).

Well that's certainly a step in the right direction.

Your best argument to Francis being immature seems to be his inadaquate D thus far, implying that he's immature for not taking care of it.

I dunno if that's my best argument but it's certainly one. There are a lot of them including his latest tiff about Yao Ming which of course was smoothed over behind closed doors by the cleaner RudyT. After Rudy got a hold of everyone, all the right things were being said in typical Rockets fashion.

Given that he's a third year player with his hands full giving you a well-rounded 22/7/6 and playing with migraines, I'm sorry but I'm not going to write him off as "refusing to get better" after only his third year, esp. with the dedication he has shown in mind.

When you " " something you should make sure someone said it unless you're just trying to highlight your own words. I haven't said he refused to get better but he has yet to measurably improve in the areas I mentioned so I dunno what you'd call that.

Another thing, you bashed him for not doing the shoulder surgery when the Rockets knew their season was over. OK, so he opts to keep playing with the pain in hopes of trying to form some late season chemistry to take into the following season so they'd get off to the right foot, and you chastise him?

Wrong... I didn't bash him first of all. What I did was point out that he didn't take the advice of our doctors and go to the Mayo Clinic to have his headache situation checked out further. He preferred not to go in favor of playing in meaningless games.

This, while he's getting it taken care of in the beginning of the offseason, rehabing over the summer (unlike AI)? So he's immature and not a leader because he's sacrificing his summer so he could play out last season AND begin next season healthily with a Rockets team that has now played together more?

His shoulder injury isn't potentially career threatening. Playing with injuries is a great sign of toughness but playing in meaningless games with something chronic like what he has when you could get some help is dumb.

I'm sorry, but this is just absurd. I've never heard anyone question Francis' maturity off of this board.

You must be living in a cave then.

His teammates, the coaching staff and the media have all applauded him, yet they're all apparantly wrong, as BBS cynics apparantly know something that his co-workers and the rest of the world don't.

I doubt I know something they don't, but I'm not a Rockets employee and I don't have to worry about being frozen out of interviews by Rockets players. Get a big picture view man.

 

What did Jeff call this time of year? That's right... "The Dead Zone". Timing, your timing is perfect.

 

Nice posts thacabbage and Varunan. I'd give Varunan Rookie Poster of the Year status on that one post alone....but since it's not for me to give, let me just say that M*A*S*H still has positions available.

Many people gripe about Steve's flaws...and I won't say that he doesn't have any. He turns the ball over too much, he lets Moochie play too much, and he doesn't have the talent at creating fast breaks like Kidd does.

That being said, Steve is not the same kind of guard that Kidd is. (Not that Kidd was the same kind of guard 3 years into the league) Steve creates by his very presence - teams know that if they play off of him, he will shoot over them. Unlike many PGs in this league, he can make those shots. If they play him tight, he can blow by them and get to the hoop or dish to players for easy shots. Unlike Marbury, surrounding Steve with talent only increases his game. With fewer double teams and more options, we will see a decrease in turnovers as Steve will no longer feel he has to make the difficult play. His assists should go up now that he has two more players who can actually make shots.

Even better, I predict that after this season, his detractors will finally shut up!

 

And it's not true because you said so? What exactly does this statement mean? You keep acting like you're some kind of authority on Steve that we should give a care about.

Define "leadership." TAKING SHOTS LATE IN GAMES ISN'T THE ONLY QUALITY BY WHICH LEADERSHIP SHOULD BE JUDGED. AND THAT'S THE ONLY PART OF STEVE'S LEADERSHIP YOU'RE COMPLAINING ABOUT. I saw Horry make plenty of game-winners last year, by the way. And if the Lakers had anyone else who could create off the dribble, ala Steve and Cat, that player would get some clutch opportunities as well. But they don't have another player like that, so Kobe gets a larger proportion of the shots than Steve.

Show he isn't. Saying he isn't doesn't make it so. Shooting a lot isn't all that leadership is. Ask Jason Kidd. Kidd leads without being a big-time scorer. You're saying Steve isn't a leader, because he's "only" averaging 20 ppg, and he's letting gifted scorers like Mobley and Thomas shoot a little?

That's just you. No one else ever said that.

You claim that some players on the team might "fear Steve more than they 'love' him", yet you also claim that you're not saying he's bad for the locker room. What are you on? And where can I get some?

I'd rather he play if he can, so we can have some kind of chemistry to build on going into next season. You'll find that Steve playing at the end of the season isn't universally considered "dumb," as you seem to think it is. Playing through pain merely to establish chemistry is a sign of extremely dedicated leadership. Your definition of "leadership" remains a mystery.

Wow! You can guess at what Rudy T is thinking! I care! Anyone can speculate on a coach's thoughts, but it's meaningless. Stick to what they say. And if you do that, you'll realize Rudy has supported Steve all the way. Seems you're more inclined to get all emotional here and be blinded by your inexplicable hatred of our best player.

Um try 12. Those stats are from last season. Weren't we talking about this season? This season, Steve was in an 8-way tie for 19th place. Kobe Bryant was in a 4-way tie for 12th with 14. There goes that part of your argument.

He doesn't have a reputation around the league as being a punk. Where are you getting this stuff?

Why not? It's still maturity. I know I would b**** and moan a lot if I got assigned a dunk that I physically couldn't do.

Uh... you did bash him, first of all (see above quotes... I believe you called him "dumb" twice). I like how you say you didn't bash him, and then you bash him one paragraph later. And they weren't meaningless games (I've talked about this already. Moving on...).

And you're living in your own little dream world. Find me quotes of people questioning his maturity this year outside of this board. Good luck.


You've managed to contradict yourself twice (firstly about Steve being a bad influence in the locker room, and then about not bashing him in your posts), and cite the wrong statistics once (technical fouls this season). Boy, you sound like a reliable poster we should all listen to! At this point it seems that you're just trying to win an argument, without regards to your feelings on the material itself. You also try to discredit people for basing arguments on their own feelings, then do the same thing yourself. I think thacabbage puts this feeling of mine into words very nicely:

 

Timing,

I said I didn't want to go back and forth over this thing, because it would be a waste of time and it woudln't be constructive. I stand by that and by the content of your reply I believe I was right on both ends. Your points are merely nitpicking here and there and they don't deny anything that Francis has done or prove that he is immature.

That whole Moochie as the go-to guy thing is ridiculous. Moochie is not the go-to guy. That's like saying Horry draining a game winner at the buzzer here and there makes him the go to guy on the Lakers. What the hell are you talking about? The Lakers have Shaq and Kobe, so that gives Horry a chance to win the game, because he's slept on. The Rockets have Steve and Cuttino, and that gives Mooch the same shot. You think we'd go anywhere if the D decided to focus on Moochie?

And that whole maturity during the Slam Dunk contest, let's give Gerald Wallace props thing--- give me a break, now you're just being childish. Maturity is a state of mind. This isn't like saying that Francis won a championship in junior high (i made this up btw), so that's evidence that he has big-game experience. Any exhibition of maturity, whether at a Slam Dunk contest, NBA Finals, charity event or taco stand, is an equally relevant example of his maturity. Maturity isn't monopolized by how he performs on an NBA court, it's how he carries himself in life and he did that very well after the Slam Dunk contest. That was my point and your reply was honestly useless.

Just a quick comment and I'm done with this thread... I like how you pick and choose what to reply to in my post. For instance, you take the two Jazz techs and claim they could have been a result of his "reputation for being a punk" as you term it, citing his 23 technical fouls. I like how you omit the rest of that quote from your reply, however, where I talk about him leaving the court after those techs like a mature young gentleman, opposed to throwing a tantrum.

But that's fine, you can omit all you want, I just want to say that first of all, Francis didn't have 23 techs last season... those stats are two seasons old there buddy, I can tell by Rasheed's 40 (wait a minute, I thought I was supposed to the newbie?). And he did infact have 12 last year (he cut them in half by the next season, could that be a sign of maturation?), two of which were pure garbage and I vaguely remember at least a couple more being highly questionable. Then you have the Minnessota one that was not a liability, but a wonderful motivational tool, so I obviously don't count that against him either. So, really, maybe he "acted up" inappropriately (in a Rasheed Wallace sort of sense) like 7 times last season, and that's at best. That hardly seems as bad as the 23 you're claiming.

Lastly, I just wanted to clear up a couple things: [1] Francis isn't committed to winning because I "said so". It's true because he's shown commitment both on and off the court with his intense play in games/in the second half (leading by doing), his perseverance to continue playing through injuries (setting an example for the rest of the team), the tremendous disparity in the win/loss record of his team when he suits up to when he doesn't (26-31 to 2-23), and his comments off the court taking responsibility for the team (as a leader would do). Because of the above, I believe he is committed to winning, not because I "said so".

[2] On him being an effective team leader, I thought I did show it. Read the quote from Willis in the Chronicle article. Read the quotes from Rudy. Nuff said. Also note the teams win/loss record when he's on the court and off. You can say that they play better with him because he's their best player, but being 26-31 with him and 2-23 without him, clearly shows that he's a (far) better leader than a team's average star player. If you disagree with me, then you're basically disagreeing with virtually every major sports publication that has pointed this out many times when validating his nickname, "The Franchise", to their readers at various spots during the season.

All right, I'm done with this issue. You can respond back if you'd like, but there'll be no reply from me.

Actually, you said that I must be living in a cave when I said that I've never heard anyone criticize Francis' maturity off of this board. Find me an article from any half-decent newspaper, sports magazine, sportswriter, etc. and I'd be glad to talk about that, cause I've never seen a single one.

Oh, and by the way, thanks to all for the positive feedback on my post! It's much obliged!

OH, and btw, I just read Drexlerfan22's response to Timing's response to my response to his response and I'd like to say that if I were to have went over Timing's post issue by issue, it would have came out very similar to Drexlerfan22's! That reply was great and funny as hell btw!

 

(Shakes head in disgust!!)


First of all, all you Sveve Francis haters Meet your worst nightmare- Me: future 2003-2004 M*A*S*H President by election

I know its been a rough year and I know when times get tough you look to blame someone. Its human nature, but DAMN IT! Where is the loyalty? Like that Cool Cat. Cattino said " Not enough players are showing loyalty" This goes for fans also.
You have to stay with Steve, through the thick and thin. Because when that sweet day comes when a Trophy is in the hands of Steve Francis, it will be that much more rewarding. Here are some reasons why you sould stop Steve Bashing.

1.Named the 1999-2000 Schick NBA Co-Rookie of the Year

2.Led Houston with averages of 18.0 points, 6.6 assists and 1.53 steals in his first season, becoming the first Rockets rookie to lead his team in all of these categories

3.Honored as a unanimous selection on the Schick All-Rookie First Team after being named the Schick Rookie of the Month three times

4.Became the first player in franchise history to register 400 rebounds and 500 assists in the same season

5.Set the Rockets rookie record for assists in a season

6.Finished as the runner-up to Vince Carter in the NBA.com Slam Dunk Contest

7.ranks 3rd in N.B.A in triple doubles

More to come.........

and this is in how many season? lol
what do you want him to do? freakin save the world?
$$$$$$

Hey guys, dont think about the past anymore, The Rocket future is going to be the brightest and happiest of all the teams in the N.B.A.

let me erase all the negativity with our bright future

1. We have a brand new arena that will be in use in the 2003 that will be the center of attraction of Houston, and in my oppinion the best arena in the N.B.A

2. We are getting rid of our ugly jerseys and getting new ones. beautiful ones, worn on the backs of millions of fans all around the world, from east to west.

3. Forget the lakers "Dynasty" Yao Ming has come and his entrance marks the begining of a new Dynasty, the "Ming Dynasty"

Our future is so hopefull, that there shouldnt be room for negativity. Go Rockets.

 

Damn, were getting routty routy and bouty bouty up in here!.
This is better then watching that episode of Jerry Springer: Trailor trash insence.

 

Duncan is the only guy the Spurs can market. The people in San Antonio adhore him. They think he is God or something. The Spurs wouldn't take a chance on trading him for our entire team. Duncan is the guy who sells tickets and merchendise. On top of that, he is the MVP.

If you were the Spurs GM, would you cut off the hand that feeds you to take a chance on an unproven center strapped with a crapload of red tape and a whiner with migraines?

Don't ge me wrong, I love Francis and he is a great player but he has a label to a degree. Also, given the current Rocket's roster, picking Ming was a no-brainer. We needed a center. However, the feeling here in San Antonio is that they have a shot to make a legitimate run at the title this season. They are not thinking trade.

 

Anyone who has read Charles Barkley's autobiography published in 92' OUTRAGEOUS! would know that(according to Charles) not all allstars or legends in this instance are leaders on the floor.

"He wasn't Mr. Inspiration. He was simply Julius Erving. What the public saw of Julius on the court--the all-business, charismatic Dahk-tah, Julius Errrrrr-ving, as the 76ers' late, great public address announcer Dave Zinkoff used to call him--was pretty much the person that he allowed his teammates to see. Nothing more. To us, there is no other side to Julius Erving. He was Dr. J on the court and Dr. J in the locker room. He gave his best effort every night, and he expected us to do the same."

-Charles Barkley on Julius Erving's Leadership qualities.

Leadership just isn't knocking down a clutch shot. If you are a leader on a basketball team then you have the gift of pushing your teammates to their limit and playing an impressionable role on your teammates cerebral game. Lets not get overwhelmingly talented people fused with overwhelmingly charismatic individuals.

 

This thread must have the record for the most long posts under one thread.

 

a-train might need to sign-off on this, but varunan is m.a.s.h poster of the year. excellent posts man. i doubt anyone here hates steve but i think since they love the rockets so much they are unfairly critical of him. he absolutely has his faults but not to the degree some make them out to be. he's a great player, just let him develop.

 

So you agree that Kobe is more mature than Steve and I've shown how I believe Kobe to be "so much more mature" than Steve but now you want to specifically quantify the measure by which Kobe is precisely "so much more mature" than Steve? There is no Tom Ridge color chart for maturity here. I think we'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

Originally posted by thacabbage
From reading your entire post, your main argument in response to Vanuran seems to be "<i>Francis is mature just because you say so? You can't just make stuff up.</i>" Fine, well if that's the case, who are you to assume that Francis is not as concerned with winning than with other things. What has he done to demonstrate this?

I've repeated these things several times now. Defense, leadership, decision making, passing, health, etc. We're going around and around.

Maybe because Kevin Willis is a better orator than Francis or maybe because he is the only veteran on the team. Who the hell knows and who the hell cares? Francis isn't the leader because he didn't speak in front of the freakin crowd? When did Hakeem ever do any speaking?

I mentioned this was a minor observation so please don't blow it out of proportion, however, when did you ever see World B Free speaking for the team over Hakeem?

Cuttino Mobley and Steve Francis are the go-to guys, not Moochie Norris. I remember game winners against Utah and Detroit from Steve off the top of my head...

Well I do remember the Utah one where he blew off RudyT's timeout call and ran down for the three. Of course RudyT again went for the save and said it was no big deal which just illustrates how easy it is here for Steve. Cat and Moochie have been as much go to guys late in the 4th as Steve. I don't know how you could really dispute that unless Heypee has some chart that I don't know about.

See you are basing your argument upon your own speculation. If Vanuran can't state that "Francis is committed to winning" as his argument, then you can't just base your argument on fictitious altercations which you believe Rudy is covering up.

He made his statement as one of fact. Mine was pure speculation and in actuality so was his but you're not seeing it that way because you believe his declaration of fact. If you believed that Shandon Anderson had some friction with Steve that pretty much caused his freeze out on this team then you'd probably be more likely to believe my speculation and not his.

And the players fear Steve more than they love him? What are you basing <i>this</i> on? Is that your argument? Using this twisted logic, one could easily assert <i>anything</i> based on no evidence. Hell, I think the team lost games on purpose in an effort to threaten management into designing new uniforms. I have zero evidence of this, but hell, I have a hunch so it must be true.

You're all over the place dude. I said...

I actually think some of the players on this team fear Steve more than they "love" him.

This is my statement of opinion. We're allowed to have those aren't we? If I had to back up that opinion I'd base it on the Shandon situation and the Morris trade. Steve is the man who gets his way on this team and everyone knows it. Why don't you all have to back up your opinion that everyone on this team loves Steve? As I've said before, you're not going to hear negative things in the press from the Rockets so we're not likely to know what's going on behind closed doors. We hear the good, we don't hear the bad. You may choose to disagree with my speculative statement but it's naive to think things in that locker room are always as rosey as they'd have us believe.

Ok, so then why do you consider this a lack of maturity? You can question his judgement but explain to me how it shows that Steve is immature. Perhaps he wanted to set an example by playing through pain and being there for the team. We can disagree with his decision but it hardly shows immaturity.

We can play devil's advocate with it all night long but would a more mature veteran player in the same situation make that same decision? Likely not and you know it.

It may not show maturity as Vanuran suggested, but how does playing through pain show <i>immaturity</i>? Again, you can disagree with his decision, but playing through pain does not demonstrate immaturity. If you think it does, we might as well lock up this thread because there is nothing left for me to argue.

Ditto above.

So Karl Malone, the 45 year vet and senior citizen of the NBA, is immature also? But however, I do agree....Steve does need to tone down the technicals.

A little bit different situation with Malone and we all know that.

And you are actually commending this poor display of refereeing? You are actually openly advocating referees calling games based upon reputation? Are you a Jazz fan?

Oh that's weak to attack me on how refs call games. Are you really pretending that referees don't give players calls based on their temperment and attitude? And that's my fault how?

Yes it is. Demonstrating my <i>original</i> point in this thread that Steve is still young and is still maturing as a person and player. Give him time. Why are you ready to call him a lost cause?

I haven't called him a lost cause but it's time to see some improvement.

So? For whatever reason, whether it be credited to Rudy T., Francis didn't voice his displeasure openly. Why are you trying to turn this into a negative against Francis? It's almost as if you're saying <i>"God that punk would have come out and raised hell had Rudy not stepped in.</i>" You're again using your own speculation as your argument.

So are you saying that everyone on the team including Steve wouldn't have changed their tune if it weren't for Rudy? It's my fault that I accurately pointed that out? C'mon now... I don't think Francis' attitude on the situation is speculative at all considering what's been said on this board from people obviously in the know plus the Cat interview on FOX openly wanting Odom.

Perhaps you feel that they are meaningless but maybe he doesn't. After all, basketball <i>is</i> the man's livelihood. Perhaps he takes a certain degree of pride in his work and realizing the season is so short (and he had already missed so many games early on), he decided he owed it to the team to stick it out? <i>But no, this is Steve Francis the village idiot we are talking about here. No maturity. Take pride in his work? Are you kidding me?</i> However, I am now doing what I accused you of doing earlier (speculating), so I will stop. I am just pointing out that you are always taking a glass half-empty approach towards Steve. You never seem to give him the benefit of the doubt. Is it so inconceivable that the games meant something to him? This is a guy that loves to play basketball.

Well I would buy this Steve Francis hardhat going to the coal mines picture that you're painting but if basketball IS the man's livelihood why hasn't he improved his defense, or his passing, or his decision making? If it's so important to him and he takes SO much pride in his work why no improvement? I gave Steve the benefit of the doubt for three seasons so far and probably another. I've been propping the guy as the best player on the team even when the Cat Bandwagon comes out of the woodwork about what a great scorer he is. When do fans and reporters start asking Steve the hard questions instead of accepting whatever he does? When do we start holding him accountable? Soon I think.

 

Originally posted by Drexlerfan22
And it's not true because you said so? What exactly does this statement mean? You keep acting like you're some kind of authority on Steve that we should give a care about.

I've pointed out why I believe it so. You keep acting like you're some authority on Steve that I should care about. Oh wait, this is a message board and people discuss things on here.


Define "leadership." TAKING SHOTS LATE IN GAMES ISN'T THE ONLY QUALITY BY WHICH LEADERSHIP SHOULD BE JUDGED. AND THAT'S THE ONLY PART OF STEVE'S LEADERSHIP YOU'RE COMPLAINING ABOUT. I saw Horry make plenty of game-winners last year, by the way. And if the Lakers had anyone else who could create off the dribble, ala Steve and Cat, that player would get some clutch opportunities as well. But they don't have another player like that, so Kobe gets a larger proportion of the shots than Steve.

It's not taking the shot every time necessarily. I can't believe you're digging up Robert Horry in a discussion on leadership. Maybe you should watch a few games or something.

Shooting a lot isn't all that leadership is. Ask Jason Kidd. Kidd leads without being a big-time scorer. You're saying Steve isn't a leader, because he's "only" averaging 20 ppg, and he's letting gifted scorers like Mobley and Thomas shoot a little?

Do you even watch our team? Kidd has the ball all the time late in games whether to make the pass or create his own shot while late in our games it's not uncommon for Steve to be way over on the weak side while Cat or Moochie isolates.

That's just you. No one else ever said that.

Well hell you got me there.

You claim that some players on the team might "fear Steve more than they 'love' him", yet you also claim that you're not saying he's bad for the locker room. What are you on? And where can I get some?

Uh yeah, nobody ever feared Shaq, or Bird, or Michael friggin Jordan. Damn you're good at this.

I'd rather he play if he can, so we can have some kind of chemistry to build on going into next season.

Who cares what you'd rather? Oh right, this is a message board.

You'll find that Steve playing at the end of the season isn't universally considered "dumb," as you seem to think it is. Playing through pain merely to establish chemistry is a sign of extremely dedicated leadership. Your definition of "leadership" remains a mystery.

Your definition of chemistry is an utter mystery. I know for a fact that all of Houston rose up in unison with a collective WTF!??! when we found out Steve blew off the Mayo Clinic visit to play in a meaningless game. I also find it amusing that you think he's establishing chemistry when that's all everyone talks about how GREAT the chemistry on this team is but hell he's out there establishing MORE chemistry. We got chemistry coming out of our ears man!


Wow! You can guess at what Rudy T is thinking! I care! Anyone can speculate on a coach's thoughts, but it's meaningless. Stick to what they say. And if you do that, you'll realize Rudy has supported Steve all the way. Seems you're more inclined to get all emotional here and be blinded by your inexplicable hatred of our best player.

How long have you been a fan of the Rockets dude? Stick to what Rudy says? Are you kidding me? That's a riot man.

Um try 12. Those stats are from last season. Weren't we talking about this season? This season, Steve was in an 8-way tie for 19th place. Kobe Bryant was in a 4-way tie for 12th with 14. There goes that part of your argument.

Um no try 23. His backboard slapping days were from the prior season not this last season. If you followed the team you'd know that. He had 12 this year and played in 57 games.

He doesn't have a reputation around the league as being a punk. Where are you getting this stuff?

Oh, you have to get out from under the rock man.


Why not? It's still maturity. I know I would b**** and moan a lot if I got assigned a dunk that I physically couldn't do.

You want to give Steve credit for not acting like a jerk at a slam dunk contest? Are you his agent?

Uh... you did bash him, first of all (see above quotes... I believe you called him "dumb" twice). I like how you say you didn't bash him, and then you bash him one paragraph later. And they weren't meaningless games (I've talked about this already. Moving on...).

You should move on. I said playing in meaningless games is dumb. I didn't say Steve is or was dumb unless you want to say my fictional quotation of what RudyT said is in fact me calling Steve dumb. Whatever that meant.

And you're living in your own little dream world. Find me quotes of people questioning his maturity this year outside of this board. Good luck.

I think we covered RudyT and the press way back on page 2.

You've managed to contradict yourself twice (firstly about Steve being a bad influence in the locker room, and then about not bashing him in your posts)

Which you definitely can't find a quote on that because I never said he was a bad influence but nice try.

and cite the wrong statistics once (technical fouls this season).

The backboard slapping incidents which I referred to were from the prior season which you would know if you watched the team. His stats for last season are perfectly meaningless.

Boy, you sound like a reliable poster we should all listen to!

Oh I'm touched. Oh wait, is this a message board? Oh right.

At this point it seems that you're just trying to win an argument, without regards to your feelings on the material itself.

I'm trying to win an argument without regard to my feelings on the material? That's a new one. LOL