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Precedent for a 6'6 starting C?

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by durvasa, Oct 20, 2009.

  1. Bob Sacamano

    Bob Sacamano Member

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    I like Chuck, so I'm not trying to hate on him, but I tend to think it's the opposite. Because he's such a poor scorer, and demonstrably so, people exaggerate his abilities in other less "tangible" areas to make up for it. Instead of trying to do the impossible and argue that Chuck's not a poor scorer, people will claim he's the best inbound passer ever, or the best ever at the dribble handoff, or the best ever at boxing out on jumpballs, or whatever. And since claims like those are so inherently subjective, if somebody disagrees, it's easy to say "lol, you know nothing about basketball."
     
  2. durvasa

    durvasa Member

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    I see what you're saying. But, honestly, Chuck is the best passer we have amongst our bigs and I'm pretty sure I've heard the coaches say the same. Doesn't make him all-world in that department, certainly, but it is something I'd say he's "above average" at.

    Its a good question. But reports indicate that Chuck was a regular working on his game in the offseason, so I don't think its for lack of trying. It's a cruel irony that the exceptional strengths he has are so offset by such offensive limitations.
     
  3. leebigez

    leebigez Member

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    Yeah, if you go back and watch those old guys play like lanier,unseld,and the center from ny, can't think of his name, but all those guys had that spot up jimmy from 15ft. The reason is because they had to get jabbar,wilt, and guys like that away from the rim. Plus those guys rounded their game.

    Let me say this without derailing the thread, hayes is a terrible free throw shooter because his depth perception is poor. His perception is bad because he never shoots from 15ft. People will fight me on this, but guys that can shoot from distance don't work on free throws like the guys who can't shoot from that range. Hayes will never be a good free throw shooter just as shaq will never be mainly because they never take shots from there. Notice how Amrare free throws got better once his range got better? It works hand in hand. So hayes,howard,reggie eveans,ben wallace and those guys can practice as many free throws as they want, but until they get used to shooting the ball from that range, they will never be good free throw shooters. Just saying.
     
  4. durvasa

    durvasa Member

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    Interesting point.

    BTW, for people that are interested in watching Unseld: youtube 1975 NBA Finals.
     
  5. Shroopy2

    Shroopy2 Member

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    AdVANCED real life analysis for yalls asses :eek:

    This can help explain why poor outside shooters like Andre Miller and Brevin Knight still shoot respectable from the line compared to most bigs. Just the fact they know theyre gonna be called on to shoot from outside. means they'll at least do SOME deep range shooting practice. Which benefits the foul shooting. Doesnt explain Bruce Bowen though...

    I dont like that there's only 1 comparitive for this precedent. Sure helps the player used is an all time great though. Much more encouraging than finding some example scrub from the late 70's who got lit up on the regular.
     
  6. BetterThanEver

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    Chuck is more like 6'2". He looks about 3 inches taller than Jameer, who is listed at 6'0", but can't be taller than 5'11".

    [​IMG]
     
  7. RedRedemption

    RedRedemption Member

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    From what I've seen, Chuck Hayes is an excellent passer and a semi-decent ballhander for his position. He could be the (significantly shorter) Vlade Divac (without the offense) for the Houston Rockets in the Rick Adelman motion offense.

    If he can develop a decent hookshot, then he would be a far greater player than he is today.
     
  8. durvasa

    durvasa Member

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    A good hook short requires more length, leaping ability, and/or touch than Chuck possesses, unfortunately.
     
  9. ElPigto

    ElPigto Member
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    Chuck just needs to make sure to finish those open lay-ups at the bottom of the basket. In practice they should put a few bodies around him to get him prepared to make those shots.

    If at least he can help us by doing that it won't be 4 on 5 in the offense.
     
  10. Pieman2005

    Pieman2005 Member

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    Wow, great point.
     
  11. DrNuegebauer

    DrNuegebauer Member

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    Good point.

    I've seen Nelson without shoes on, he's more like 4'4. Which makes Chuck about 4'7 I guess?


    For the rest of you: Chuck clearly measured in at 6'7 at the pre-draft camp. That's where everyone else gets measured, so that's the 'fair comparison'.
     
  12. Deckard

    Deckard Blade Runner
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    You're thinking of Willis Reed, Leeb, another great center from the era.
     
  13. aghast

    aghast Member

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    There's a reason he passes up that jumper; Hayes knows his limitations. He's the Chuck Knoblauch of the NBA, always overthrowing first base. The yips he gets on his free throws are psychological; imagine if he adds the variable of jumping to that mix.

    I'm not sure he's able to get off a jumpshot before he lands.

    Lee, I'm not sure that poor depth perception explains the significant hitch in his (in-game) free throw shot. (Rockets announcers repeatedly reference that Hayes' free-throw technique is considerably better in practice, when no one is watching / the game is not on the line.) Plenty of NBA centers can't shoot jumpers from 12-15 feet, have no face-up game at all, yet still are able to hit 60-70% of their free throws. Hayes' free throws look slightly more fluid this preseason, but the jury's still out.

    Hayes is a borderline NBA player, incapable of playing offense. He is not a threat to score other than open layups. His passing ability, while serviceable, is of considerably less value than it would be coming from a 4 that merited the opposing player's honest guarding. As it is, defenders can sag off him when he's in the high post, because they know he can do nothing with the ball but pass.

    As good as he is overcoming his height disadvantage on the defensive end, he is an albatross on the offensive side. I think aiming for Unseld (one of the greatest rebounders all-time, in addition to being a competent scorer) might be just a tad bit of an overreach on his part.
     
  14. Carl Herrera

    Carl Herrera Member

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    ^^^ Yao Ming rarely took a shot outside of 12' for most of his NBA career-- and generally struggled when Adelman first asked him to start taking FT line or 18 ft jumpers and yet he has been an excellent FT shooter his whole career.


    Chuck Hayes may never be great, but I believe he was doing much better at the beginning of his NBA career and in Kentucky. The hitch and the resulting bad shooting seems to have been a more recent development over the courseof his nba career.
     
  15. aghast

    aghast Member

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    Cool; according to this, Hayes shot 73%+ from the line while in college. I didn't know that.

    Knoblauch was a Gold Glove second baseman, then one day with the Yankees his brain stopped cooperating with his arm. Pressure builds up, year after year, then finally finds a release. Strangest thing.
     
  16. MrButtocks

    MrButtocks Member

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    The high post is 15 feet away from the basket. Any defender that sags off more than arm's length in the paint will get called for a three second violation. No one has arms that are 15 feet long.

    No one ever plays Hayes for the shot, but he's pulled off more passes from the high post over the past two years than Yao has. Probably more than Scola too. He's pulled it off a bunch of times this preseason too. It might his best way to utilize him offensively.
     
  17. leebigez

    leebigez Member

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    Most of Yao's shots are 10-12ft contested turnarounds or fades. If a player is restricted to shooting layups and or just dunks, he's going to struggle from the free throw line. There are rare exceptions, but its pretty consistent. Shaq practiced free throws a lot, but he never could become a decent ft shooter. Its hard, almost impossible to take all your shots from 5ft then all of a sudden shoot from 15ft.
     
  18. Carl Herrera

    Carl Herrera Member

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    http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Chuck-Hayes-110/stats/

    Funny... did Chuck Hayes shoot more 15' FGs in college or was there some other reason why he managed to shoot over 70% from the line during his 4 years in KY (78.8% during one of these years).


    There is more at play than your "depth perception" theory.
     
  19. leebigez

    leebigez Member

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    Its not a theory, its more so the plain truth. You can bring up college stats and I don't know or can't explain why he shot 78% in college and is terrible in the pros. The same can be said for guys who were awesome shooters in college and then struggle in the nba to shoot. I know if u watch enough basketball its easy to see the terrible free throw shooter and link that up to the range. Wallace,Shaq,Dudley,Wilt,Russell,and on and on. The key is none of those guys scored from further than like 5 ft.
     
  20. Bob Sacamano

    Bob Sacamano Member

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    I was just about to post something like this.
     

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