In my mind, there are only two legitmate candidates for GOAT consideration: Wilt and Hakeem. I'd put Jordan at a close 3rd behind those two guys. (LeBron is the only guy in sight that might have a chance to surpass any of those three.) Magic would be 4th on my list. Bill Russell is probably somewhere near the bottom of top 10.
Yes, I agree Hakeem has the edge in pure basketball skills. And Wilt was absolutely pathetic at the line, Russ not much better. And your one on one point is valid. Theoretically placing players on different teams is very difficult. Fun, but difficult. Definitely, some guys like Horry with multiple rings aren't equal to that legacy. But my belief with Russell is that he was the centerpiece on each of those 11 title teams, even at the end. I've just gained a greater appreciation over the years for how difficult what he accomplished really was, though the league was much, much smaller then. It's only my opinion.
Hakeem couldn't stop a young Shaq in the 95' finals. I don't see him stopping Wilt from backing into the lane, unless he sent Wilt to the line, which is the only way anyone stopped him. Wilt was 7'1", about 275 in his prime. Hakeem also had trouble stopping a less than prime Kareem. He couldn't deal with the skyhook early in his career. Really, no one ever proved they could, until Kareem was right at the end. IMO, Russ or Wilt would do better than most defending Hakeem. They wouldn't stop him, no.
Nice to hear from someone who saw them play. I did not, except in clips, but I've studied their careers. I'm just offering my opinion. I wish I could've seen them, though. Especially head to head. I was able to catch Game 6 of the 1963 Finals(Cousy's last game) on NBATV, and I was blown away by Russell's defensive versatility. He was all over the court, switching, stripping guards, swatting shots. It's impressive that you still pick Dream. He was indeed awesome.
Hakeem and Wilt over Jordan? Magic 4th? Is it okay for me to laugh now? Don't let nostalgia and bias blind you. Hakeem is not on the same tier as KAJ, Shaq, and Wilt. He's probably far and away the 4th best center though. Shaq would have absolutely demolish Wilt's era. A 7'1 330+ pound man who can jump 36 inches and probably had better ball handling than most PG's of that era. The only problem is his stamina is nowhere near Wilt's.
1. Kareem 2. Russell 3. Wilt 4. Shaq/Hakeem 5. Hakeem/Shaq Prime Hakeem was more dominant than Prime Shaq, but the Longevity favors Shaq.
Do you seriously believe this? Just to be clear, you do know Oscar Robertson played during the 1960's, don't you? And Lenny Wilkins? Walt Frazier started in 1967. Now I know Moochie Norris didn't play in that era, but he's got better handles than Shaq.
Laugh all you want. Yes I am biased, but just a little bit. Read the posts by those who actually watched Hakeem play his whole career. The rookie Dream stunned Kareem and his mighty Lakers. More than a decade later, he swept Shaq's team in the Finals. Shaq always paid his respect to Hakeem. I know you must be one of those who think Jordan was the GOAT as "no brainer." This kind of mentality is created either by the hype machine or by the ring-counting routine, or both. I said Jordan would be a CLOSE 3rd. Yes, I suppose that one can argue for Jordan as #1. But no, it is not a foregone conclusion.
Wilt did it too. Twice in a row in fact. This is also old Wilt who had lost some athleticism by that point. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAaaWpt3qDc See around 6:20 near the end of the video. Shaq might have dominated Wilt's era but he wouldn't have dominated it as much as Wilt did. At KU Wilt was the Big 8 high jump champion three years in a row, high jumping a max of 6'6 3/4" (before the invention of the Fosbury flop which added several inches), and ran the 100 yard dash in 10.9 seconds (for reference the highest 40 times in the NFL combine are typically around 4.2). Wilt was not ridiculously strong when he first got into the NBA but his body filled out and he got much stronger, as did Shaq; look at his Orlando Magic highlights and you'll see he's quite a bit more lean than in his Lakers highlights. Wilt would have been an elite athlete in any era.
Apparently you did since the only thing Hakeem bested Shaq at was scoring that series. And this is a prime Hakeem vs a 3rd year Shaq mind you. Oscar Robertson, Walt Frazier, and pretty much everyone else during the 60s are terrible ball handlers by todays standard. If you can only think of three point guards that might be better than Shaq at handling the ball, doesn't that kind of prove that the 60s have no great ball handlers? Jordan is the undisputed number one and it's not even close. There's no debate. The fact that you think Hakeem is better than Jordan is laughable since the only two times he won the rings was when Jordan was out of the league.
All of today's ballhandlers would be called for palming/carrying the ball constantly, because they do it all the time and it is allowed now and it wasn't then. Traveling was also much more strictly enforced.
See one of ArtisGilmore's posts or one of mine. There were several HOF centers in that era. Erick Dampier would get his butt kicked in that era just the way he does now. Reed, Lucas, Bellamy, Wilt, Russ, etc. would embarrass him. Shaq mowing through Wilt? Doubtful. Even the early Wilt was incredibly strong, and the later Wilt was ungodly. The players from his era will attest to that. He once dislocated the shoulder of one of the stronger players in the league who tried to dunk on him. Just threw him to the floor with the force of his block. Russell would hold his own against Hakeem, he was very mobile and quick, like Hakeem. He did better against Wilt than anyone.
If you never saw a guy play you cannot compare him to anyone. If you do you're just guessing. I've seen every great center play numerous times. (By the way if you didn't see Kareem in Milwaukee you missed him at his best.) Here's the reality: Hakeem took up the game late. At his peak he was extremely good. He was not up to the level of Kareem, Wilt or Russell. Not close. He was definitively below them. This is not a knock on Olajuwon. He was tremendous, but no one who saw all these guys play would rank him in the top three. If you didn't see Wilt or Russell you have no idea how phenomenal, how talented, and how athletic they were. Wilt was better than Shaq at every phase of the game. He was faster, a much better rebounder, passer, ballhandler and shotblocker. He had a more varied offense too. Shaq weighed more but Wilt was much better conditioned and even stronger. Wilt could jump as well as Dwight Howard and was much longer. Wilt did things that seemed impossible even while you were watching. He was superhuman. Russell was unequivocally the most brilliant player in the history of the sport. He was a magnificent athlete. He could jump so high he could hang and look down into the rim. He was unbelievably quick. He never went for stats, and gave them up for wins. He was always in the right spot. Russell was the best ever.
It is hard to argue against Russell's championships. If you are winning titles, what else should you REALLY strive for? Scoring titles? I'm sure Iverson or TMac will trade some of theirs... It is also very hard to argue against the sheer dominance of Wilt. Has anyone dominated any sport the way he did? They are the top 2 in any discussion I think. Then we have Kareem and Hakeem. I think that is up for debate. Kareem basically always had great players around him. Hakeem did not. Sure, Kareem had the longevity, but if we are really talking about the greatest of all-time, longevity doesn't carry as much weight. NOBODY thinks of Emmitt Smith as the greatest of all-time over Sanders, Brown, Payton...I would say that Hakeem is #3. Kareem #4. Then there is Shaq. I don't know, I guess Shaq could displace Kareem or Hakeem, maybe, but I am not convinced enough of that to try to make an argument for it. So, I think the top 5 centers of all-time are: 1, 1a (in any order) Wilt, Russell 3. Hakeem 4. Abdul-Jabbar 5. Shaq
