All I can do is use the results and testimony of his peers. 11 for 13 isn't hearsay. I respect the opinions of the all time greats, and this is what they say. Just like Hakeem's peers may give him the nod. It's a generational thing, but even though I'm not from Russell's generation, I'll take him.
I respectfully disagree. The most individually dominant center, far and away, was Wilt. 50ppg, 27rpg in 61-62, 44ppg next season, 100 point game in 61-62. Lifetime 30ppg, 23rpg. You can criticize Wilt's era, but he also battled Russell, like I said earlier, 11,12 times a year. Hakeem never led the league in scoring, great as he was. He did not dwarf his competition like Wilt did.
Russell averaged 15ppg, 22rpg. And he was a very complete player. His teammates have said he could've scored more if that was required, but that wasn't best for the team, and so he didn't. One reason his teammates scored so much was Russell igniting the fast break with his shot blocking. He did score 20ppg in college, more than Hakeem. Incomplete players don't win 11 out of 13. No other Celtic was there for all 11. Not Auerbach, Cousy, Havlicek. As for your point about the Bobcats, when Russell got to Boston, they were mediocre. He put them over the top. Of course any player needs help. No one gets a title alone. Hakeem could'nt have either.
He was the strongest because there was lack of strength on players in that era compared to now. Hakeem was unstoppable in college and early in the pros. Did we forget the nba finals appearance in 86? But you're going off of hearsay anyways. Verbiage that is coming from other peoples perception. I saw dream play which is why i feel like he is the best center. From the clips of russell and wilt that Ive seen, the competition seemed limited.
I'm not putting Wilt down. I just don't believe he would have fit there like Russ did. They had enough offense without him. They needed defense and rebounding more than his scoring. Many old Celtics seem to agree with that. Wilt was too wrapped up in his own numbers to have been an ideal fit. He swatted shots out of bounds, instead of redirecting them to teammates for a fast break. He was obsessed with scoring in his earlier days, and that wouldn't have flown on the Celtics.
Wilt would've been the strongest in any era, except possibly for Shaq. And Hakeem clearly was not unstoppable in college. He was explosive, but extremely raw. He averaged about 12, 13ppg, simply because he was still learning the game. Early in the NBA, I don't think he was unstoppable, like his prime from 93-94 to 96-97. He was more of an inside power player. Hearsay? Yes, I have to rely on testimony of his peers for some things, but the final results don't lie. 11 for 13. I can't judge Russell on what he would do today, only on what he actually did. Do you think Babe Ruth was overrated because you never saw him play, either? Maybe, but you can't deny the accomplishments. Projecting Russell into this era, he would have the advantages of modern players, weight training, advanced scouting, etc., so who's to say he wouldn't be even better? Likewise Hakeem, drop him into Russell's era, without those things. Maybe a different story. Comparing eras is always tricky.
No, not at all. MJ was superior. And I've explained my logic on Russell over Hakeem. Read my other posts.
Don't forget that Hakeem did not start playing basketball until he was 17 or 18. His sport was soccer, so of course he was pretty raw. Just imagine him picking up a basketball at 5 or 6 yrs old. You have to compare eras, because you need to factor in competiton. Hell when I go to the park and play I look like the best basketball player in the world, because of the competition. Hakeem era had the greates players, don't need to name them all. He all of the best centers Jabbar(at the end of his career), Shaq, Ewing, Robinson. If you put Russell in the era he wouldn't have done any more than Mt Motumbo.
I object to the statement that Wilt played against poor competition. He played against many great Hall of Fame centers, Russell, Nate Thurmond, Walt Bellamy, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Willis Reed, Jerry Lucas, and dominated this competition with the exception of Kareem Abdul-Jabbar at the end of his career, but he outplayed Kareem in 1972 which was key for the Lakers to win a championship. On the subject of Wilt's strength, he could bench 500 lb at age 45 or so. He, Shaq, and possibly Artis Gilmore are the strongest players in NBA history.
Wilt is first, combination of scoring, rebounding, passing, and interior D Dream is second Russell played against inferior competition besides. Kareem, had very good teams next to him. Majic, Worthy, Scott, Cooper, Jamal Wilkes etc... Ask Majic, they would have one with Dream. Kareem coudln't have won any titles with the Rocket squad Dream played on. Same for Russell
There were only 8 teams in the league during that era I'm sure the Spurs could have done that if the entire NBA was the Southwest Division plus 3 other teams....maybe. I understand how dominant Russell was and how good those Celtics teams were and how hard it would be to win that many championships, but when you have that few teams it is a bit easier to accomplish than it was in Hakeem's era. (a bit)
Wrong. He was dominant early in his career. He was splitting a lot of post time with Sampson, so his stats do not show how good he was. Here are his playoff stats early in his career. Check out 87-88! <pre> Year Team Lg G Min Pts PPG FGM FGA FGP FTM FTA FTP 3PM 3PA 3PP ORB DRB TRB RPG AST APG STL BLK TO 1984-85 HOU NBA 5 187 106 21.2 42 88 .477 22 46 .478 0 0 .000 33 32 65 13.0 7 1.4 7 13 11 1985-86 HOU NBA 20 766 537 26.9 205 387 .530 127 199 .638 0 1 .000 101 135 236 11.8 39 2.0 40 69 43 1986-87 HOU NBA 10 389 292 29.2 110 179 .615 72 97 .742 0 1 .000 39 74 113 11.3 25 2.5 13 43 36 1987-88 HOU NBA 4 162 150 37.5 56 98 .571 38 43 .884 0 1 .000 20 47 67 16.8 7 1.8 9 11 9 </pre>
simple question: replace 93-94 olajuwon with a. wilt b. kareem c. russell which ones still win the championship in 94 my answer: possibly a and maybe b
People don't understand how much better athletes have become, Wilt played in an era when the NBA wasn't a BIG business for players. He played against a bunch of undersized players, while Hakeem played in the most competitive era for big men. Jabbar stated off with the era that Wilt played in, but since he played so long, he ended up in the era when things were starting to change. I don't think Hakeem gets the credit he deserves, he dominated when things were the toughest for big men, he outclassed them all. You just have to look at the body structure of those playing today to those who played when Wilt was around, these guys today have a motivation that was greater than that of the old days, MONEY MONEY MOONEEEEY! For me its Dream Jabbar Wilt
Modern sports medicine is external to the game, this technology was not available to the athletes back in the 1960's. Give it to the older players and they'd be almost as good if not as good as the players now. The players from about mid 1960's on were not undersized at the center position, you can check basketball-reference for heights, and heights back then were measured in bare feet.
your analysis is wrong. that's not an opinion. 2nd year in the NBA, leads the Rockets to the NBA Finals. And in college? You mean going to the NCAA championships is not dominating? I laugh at these threads cause I know only a few people are old enough to make this evaluation. I never saw Wilt or Russell play, so I can't compare. However, I know you don't know squat about the Dream.
Once again, you're making the incorrect assumption that Wilt's era was the same caliber as Olajuwon's era. That's the only way stats would be relevant. As I said before, you have to look at individual skill set, and Olajuwon had the better overall game. Do you realize that Olajuwon played in the same era as Jordan? Do you also realize that Jordan has the highest career scoring average in NBA history?
You keep saying that you have to go by what Russell's peers had to say about him and you keep referring to those peers being Celtics players. What else are they going to say about him. Have you asked any of Olajuwon's peers about who they think is the most dominant center ever? Ask Clyde Drexler who he thinks is the best center of all time. I'm pretty sure you know what his answer would be. Same goes for Robert Horry, Steve Francis, Mario Elie, and any other player that has ever played with Hakeem.
