For starters, I don't recall saying JJ shut down both Allen and Pierce. In fact, I thought I made that pretty clear. JJ was predominately matched up with Allen -- consequently, Allen didn't get an easy shot all series. However, there were possessions were Boston was able to draw switches from Marvin Williams (superb, underrated defender) and Childress to JJ thinking Pierce's physicality might be able to gain an advantageous matchup against JJ. Well, it didn't work. Plus, your observations about the C's becoming more perimeter oriented in that series are pretty whacky considering KG absolutely went off that series. That series was very much prototypical of the 2008 postseason Celtics -- KG carries them throughout the game, Pierce acts as the finisher. And I love how you're attempting to discredit JJ's defense by discrediting Pierce and Allen's play in the first two rounds. It isn't enough for you to just admit JJ played a great defensive series -- you have to go on and act like in the next series -- a rugged, physical series where both teams cracked 100 points a COMBINED one time, as if that somehow couldn't be attributed to defensively proficient teams. Instead, you have to use the word "SUCKED" 400 times in your argument thinking that word alone will somehow connect the dots. It's quite comical actually. I find it impossible to believe you've ever even seen a Hawks games without recognizing JJ's value. What he's asked to do on both ends of the court, what he means to that team.....IMPOSSIBLE to believe somebody even remotely familiar with that team could do the t_mac1 thing of regurgitating a stat-line and thinking that tells the entire story.
dude, ray ray missed so many open shots in that series, literally i thought he was a ghost and as useless as i ever seen ray allen played in his entire career. if joe did play a huge part in shutting down ray ray (who's a pretty damn good playoff performer before that), i'm sure we would hear some national attention for mr. johnson b/c that was an EPIC series that went 7 games (and only one of 2 series that went 7 games in that first round series if i remember correctly, forgot). the stage was there for that series. so if joe johnson was SO incredible like you stated, joe's rep would have been a teeny bit a lil higher in the national spotlight wouldn't you think? and there's a reason he didn't get any after that series. THE HAWKS TEAM DID THOUGH b/c their team fought and brought the physicality (i repeat physicality) that boston struggled with. like i said, if that game ever pops up into espn classic, i welcome someone to tape it and we can discuss this again. forget the stats. joe johnson was NOT incredible in that series. point blank. he played a very good series, but not incredible. INCREDIBLE would be reserved for a player who literally dominated a series or stood out as the best player in that series. but i guess your standards are different.
Without debating semantics, I find the word very fitting for the reasons I already mentioned. Players that play excellent two-way basketball in the playoffs while initiating the offense and defending/outplaying a superstar ALL THE WHILE acting as the glue that holds the team together stand out in my book. This is a blatantly obvious example of where a 20/4/4 stat-line doesn't tell the entire story. JJ is probably the least recognizable/marketable/respected All-Star in the league for whatever reason. He's very quiet in the media, his game is very smooth and not SportsCenter oriented plus he gets NO favorable treatment from the officials. He let's his game do the talking for him. I don't think it's a stretch to say that for these reasons he's a "boring" superstar. With all the drama and theatrics that go on in today's NBA with superstars and their antics, blogs, trash talking, etc etc -- JJ is very Yao-like in demeanor. He's a 3x time All-Star now so his rising status along with the continued success of the Hawks will all contribute to him becoming a more recognizable/respected star. All the same, I still don't agree with your supposition that JJ's impact on that Celtics/Hawks series isn't what I am describing merely because the media and typical NBA fans don't respect him accordingly. But to each his own.
It would be stupid not to if we could get him from the Hawks for Tmac. Anybody who argues otherwise is delusional. Tmac could be better than him if we are talking preinjury Tmac and about a couple of years ago. Current Tmac VS Johnson? Its aJohnson win. You get the better player who is healthy and can last a whole season. You get because it would make sense to extend a long term contract for a player like that. You get him because he is a better perimiter shooter for Yao when he comes. Then throw in the fact he is a decent defensive player now and I say it is a good move. However they would need brain surgery to consider this unless they wanted to dump salary and fear his signing money. It actually works for them to get a guy in Tmac who could be slightly better and end up cheaper to resign for them. For us it solidifies some instability at one major position for some time.
1) i have not heard any national medial personnel call joe a superstar 2) his status is NOT rising after this past playoff performance - joe was called out by TNT and ESPN commentators in both the heat and cavs 3) the media DOES respect joe b/c he does go about his business, and is a 2-way player, which is very admirable. i think we both agree that joe is a very good player and is an all-star. i just disagree of how highly you rank him. most of the basketball heads i talk to (laker/warrior fans so take it with a grain of salt) simply consider him an all-star type player who became "kind of overrated" after this past playoff performance. i had HIGH hopes for joe going into this past playoffs b/c he would be facing guys he should be dominating (i.e. no perimeter defender on both heat/cavs--lebron rarely guarded him). and joe played extremely timid offensively and didn't take charge at all. after seeing him in those 2 series, i concluded that he will never take his game anywhere close to another level and i would bet my money on that. i've watched enough hawks game to draw that conclusion. after this past playoffs, i don't see how you can consider his status "rising" from what it is. ultimately, joe is a player i would love to have on my team. but to disagree, he's not going to make the all-nba teams or elite level any time soon.
This is exactly how I feel. Joe Johnson couldn't even dominate the undersized Delonte West. Wing players that are definitely better than Tmac: Kobe, Lebron, Melo, Dwade, Roy, Durant. Others? Not so much.
Points one and three directly contrast each other. Plus, I don't know how a player can be an All-Star 3x and not be considered a superstar in some capacity. That's really an odd stance to take. And I mean rising in the sense that his status and legitimacy as a superstar is improving to the point where he might start receiving at least some favorable treatment from the refs. Hell, who are we kidding? We all know there are unwritten rules for officiating a superstar. Well, the only benefit JJ has going for him in that department is that the refs won't foul him out of a game. That still hasn't stopped them from getting him into early foul trouble or picking up cheapies (which goes back to what I was saying about how Doc Rivers was trying to create switches so Pierce could use his strength/physicality to draw a foul or two against the opponent's best player). It's happened a number of times. Plus, JJ doesn't get to the line nearly enough for a player that gets his offense from as many spots as he does. He does a lot of PnR'ing, dribble driving and post-up's in addition to his abilities to spot-up and work the perimeter game. I've seen him take plenty of contact and hits inside the paint that would otherwise be considered "superstar calls" that he doesn't get the whistle on. It gets kind of annoying whenever you watch enough basketball to see it happen in other situations thereby setting that as the standard. Well, it doesn't apply to JJ as much as it should. Keep in mind, this all stemmed from me taking exception to those implying that JJ was not a good playoff performer. That's hardly accurate. It's not about comparing him to T-Mac -- who's better in the playoffs, who's better right now, who would you rather. That's all unrealistic and trivial to me. That said, I don't want you to think that me defending JJ's merits in the playoffs is some sort of implication that he's some elite-level, megastar. Because he's not -- I know his limitations and he's always going to be a second banana type of player. A VERY good and underrated secondary star, but a second banana nonetheless. The problem with Atlanta is they don't have anything close to that go-to-guy outside of him that would make everything that JJ does look better and easier. Which really makes what JJ has accomplished as the sole leader of that team all the more impressive. That team has literally no post presence whatsoever yet they've already been to the second round and taken a former champion to seven games. Quite impressive for a team that's nowhere near as balanced as it should be. People just need to stop emphasizing the Cleveland series in which half of the team was hurt and he was unable to step up and go toe-to-toe with the best player in basketball. It's a bit of an unfair standard to hold. Even for a "superstar".
It's not that I'm defending Tmac or something, but honestly, do you want JJ on a 20m per or a healthy Tmac on a 10m per?
im more interested in seeing what T-Macs avgs and percentages are in the fourth. thats where it counts. you can avg all the points in the world, but if you arent scoring in the fourth quarter, u arent winning playoff games. i wonder if theres a correlation b/w t-macs 4th quarter performance and his playoff losses.
I remember Tmac having fits when he was guarded by Derek Fisher in the first Utah series. He could not even post him up effectively. Just saying...
JJ isn't worth nor is he going to get $20M per season. I know he turned down a pricey extension but he'll be entering a deep free agent class next summer -- I think when push comes to shove he'll resign with Atlanta for the 4 year/$60M ballpark figure or less. But to answer your question -- given that neither JJ nor T-Mac are capable of putting this team over the top I'd take T-Mac at $10M per year in this hypothetical scenario. JJ is better but like I said, both are pretty much second bananas at this point.
Who you kidding Tracy? Sounds like you have some animosity towards the Rockets. The only bad things everyone has to say about JJ are that his numbers drop in the playoffs and that he hasn't made it to an all nba team. Which are true, but if those are the only complaints..then i'll take JJ ANYDAY!! Tracy is known to always carry around a weapon of mass destruction.. which is his mouth. Lets not forget JJ helped the Hawks get to the 2nd round last year while guarding DWade. As a fan..I'm hoping for what's best for the future of the Houston Rockets as an organization. t_mac1.. are you a true Rockets fan?
It would be good to have Johnson on this team given that existing high salry scoring wint on this team has a distinct lack of Johnson.
JJ was timid and didn't even want to shoot on that cabs series it appeared. The commentators called him out for his lack of aggressiveness
I never said Tmac is much better than JJ, nor have I stated he's still a premier scorer in the league. I'm just saying that JJ will get his max contract next year. Bulls, Clippers, Heat, Timberwolves, Nets, Knicks, Thunder and Kings all have enough cap room to become major players in the free agency market next year. How many available all-stars are there? Lebron, DWade, Bosh, JJ, Amare, Boozer. Ray Allen and Manu are old. Tmac is injury-prone. Rondo and Gay are RFAs. Not to mention there's a great chance Lebron, DWade and Bosh will stay put. JJ is going to get his pay check, period. Do you really want another overpaid 2nd-tier player on our team?
