Apologies, eloquent and verbose Francis fan. Marbury played in the playoffs but hasn't been picked back up yet. Then again, we haven't even really started training camp, have we? Care to comment on anything else? Or has my idiocy stunted your ability to successfully, intelligently discouse?
1. A. Who is the last PG to lead his team in Points, Assists AND REBOUNDS??? B. When we had mediocre talent, he won games. How can you expect a guy to win with freaking Mo Taylor/Kelvin Cato/Moocie Norris/Pig Miller/Kenny Thomas/Jason Collier etc... C. The one year that we head a decent squad, we played well against the Lakers, despite playing various scrubs for significant minutes... D. The Magic went from winning 22 games led by Tracy McGrady, to winning 35 games led by Steve Francis, and it should have been WAY more. They were playoff bound before they traded Cuttino Mobley for Doug Christie. Steve should have been an all-star...He had MULTIPLE game winning shots. 2. Career 6 assists to 3.5 turnovers... Gilbert Arenas has a career 5.5 assists to 3.3 turnovers per game average...Yep, Steve was sloppy at times, but he was a very solid playmaker, like Gilbert can be. 3. A.I bet Yao would attest to this. Does he not call Steve, "Big Brother"? In the film "Year of the Yao", Steve and Cat take Boki and Yao under their wings, and display a "Rocket Pride" that we almost lost when we traded for Tracy. Better yet, a HOUSTON pride... B. Portland was rebuilding, and did not want to win. They wanted HIGH DRAFT PICKS. Steve might have jeopardized those high picks... The Rockets/Houston HATED to lose Steve. Anything after that was after chronic knee tendonitis and surgery. Steve has not been the same player after his first year with the Magic. Anyone that has had quadriceps surgery would tell you that it is one of the hardest surgeries to come back from. 4. Well, he did come back. Played a few nice games, including a FANTASTIC one, and had to have surgery shortly afterwards. No one knows if he will ever recover, probably unlikely. 5. False. Yao, Cat, Rudy T, and even JVG, who called him "underrated" after he left the Magic, disagree. Steve has a great heart, and is not close to being considered a "punk". You do not have to look far to see that Steves teammates loved him and his passion when he was on the floor. 6. False, He had "a clue". Rudy T's isolation offense was by design, JVG ALWAYS has an ugly offense, even when we got Tracy it was unmercifully awful, and the Magic were VERY solid on offense before they traded Cat. 7. Steve had success whenever he had talent, which was ALWAYS limited. Who knows how we would have played if CD would have added (Rumored) Rasheed Wallace to play the Lakers. 8. Cat had his best years playing with Steve, as did Mo Taylor and Kelvin Cato. Grant Hill made the freaking all-star team with SF3 at the helm. For the lack of talent Steve had, I would respectfully disagree. 9.Maybe not age, but chronic knee problems and quadriceps surgery, YES.
knote, steve was not a far superior talent. if anything, marbury was more talented than steve (he was just a dumbass teammate who just wants the riches).
Some people are delusional. If Little Stevie Wonderful can't throw alley oops to himself anymore, how does he help out the team? Efficient distribution of the ball? Dead eye shooting? Defensive hustle? What are we still waiting around for again?
I'll take the 45 inch vert and my powerfully built, CLUTCH PG leading my team in pts, asts and rebs for talent thank you very much. Agree on the second part though.
you claimed steve was a "far superior" talent, which means he blows marbury away. that is completely false. i think both are similar (and it depends on how you analyze their talents). marbury: 19.3ppg, 7.6apg (with 6 seasons of 20+, 8+) - and he's made the playoffs 4 times as one of the team's best player (not including boston's year) francis: 18.1ppg, 6apg, 5.6 apg (more well-rounded stats) and made the playoffs only once. let's be fair here. marbury has been a bigger flop if you ask basketball fans despite his "stats."
OK, "Far superior" is overstating it a bit. I think he played harder, was a better teammate, and was essentially a better overall player. I do not think he is similar to the ego that is "Starbury".
I think Steve is just more likeable to you and that's fine. We all have favorites. However, as you agree to later, Steve was not a superior talent. Did he play harder, etc? I suppose. But that doesn't make him a superior talent. He and Marbury's #s are close and so were their playing styles. Steve leading the Rox in ppg, boards, and assists meant very little to me. Frankly, I think you could've switched he and Starbury and had the same results. I also don't like my PG rebounding the ball since if he's in the paint, he's not where he should be - namely getting back on defense. As for the other post of yours with the rolly eyes, I wasn't even talking to you. Although you started with an insult ("uneducated fans", really? I played all the way to semi-pro ball and have been an avid fan my entire life, goin back to murphy, newlin, moses, rudy, etc.) you have at least engaged the subject matter. That's cool with me. The poster I was responding to just decided to go with a driveby insult on an overlook on my part. No response to the meat of the post...just a driveby regarding my final sentence. That's crap.
cassell > marbury + francis even old sam cassell, assistant coach of the wizards, could school francis and marbury.
This wasn't too long ago so you never know. <object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/THLrXJHc7YI&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/THLrXJHc7YI&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>
Really? You think Starbury could have led our team in rebounding? The PG getting defensive rebounds is a HUGE asset. For someone that has played pro-ball I would have expected more. Steve wasn't an offensive rebounder(DUR), he would get the board which in turn, cuts out the middleman. Obviously the PG gets back on D, which he did... For example, Magic Johnson and Jason Kidd and Oscar Robertson...Etc. Steve was a better player. Maybe not a superior talent, but a better player overall. And he was a VASTLY different player than Stephon... And btw, ALL my other points that you refused to address still stand.
What I'm saying is that Steph on those teams ends up with more or less the same amount of W/Ls as does Francis. He probably grabs a couple less boards and maybe averages a point or two more, but essentially you'd end up with the same team result. As far as Francis and rebounding, on the offensive end I'd rather not see him in there. On the defensive end, what real benefit is there when he couldn't properly execute a fast break anyway? Nevermind that he refused to center the ball on the break (opted for the wing, effectively cutting off one half of the court). There were a plethora of times he'd choose to skip up court, literally, instead of running the break. As for your other points... I don't see them as vastly different players. They are not identical (Steve better rebounder, Steph better passer/vision, etc.), but the fact that both are underachieving lead guards who dominated the ball, never had much team success, never really grew/matured completely, is undeniable, imo. That's how they get grouped together. Why you fight that is incomprehensible to me. Mind you, I'm not even positing that Starbury is better (which many would argue). I'm just saying the two are similar. If you like, I'll adreess your other points from your other post in the AM. I'm getting sleepy now and the Crackberry is frustrating me. Lol.
Correct me someone if I'm wrong, but I could've swore that I read on one of Bill Ingram's chats on Hoopsworld earlier in the off-season that Francis was working out over the summer towards a return, but suddenly stopped. Does anyone know what I'm referring to?
I agree. Older Cassell is definitely more effective than Francis or Marbury, cause his game does not rely on athleticism that much and his midrange J always money on the bank, which neither starbury nor francis can provide.
Knote32: Thank you for taking the time to write out a well-thought retort re: Francis. At first I was going to do a point-by-point response to your post, but I think I can accomplish the same goal without suffering the frustration of repeated Blackberry scrolls up and down, to and fro. If I miss something, let me know... As far as Francis' numbers, in and if themselves they are impressive, without question. I've never denied the talent portion of Steve's game. Nor will I (or you, apparently) deny Stephon's talent. Keep in mind Marbury posted several 20ppg, 6+apg seasons as well, in addition to reaching the playoffs (and All Star Games) numerous times. My problem with BOTH is that they were terrible point guards! Numbers aside, I don't believe either one had a clue how to run a dynamic offense. Numbers cannot show something like that. There's (to my knowledge) tracking of getting the ball to players in their sweet spots. Nor is there tracking getting a player the ball when they want it. Turnovers are tracked, yes, but I don't know of a stat for skipping up court (thus ignoring the fast or secondary break), nor one for ill-advised jack-em-up quick 3s. So that we're clear, I'm not singling out Steve. Both he and Marbury were guilty of this. As for Steve's ORL run, pre-Cat trade, you're correct that the team was doing well. I don't really care about ASG appearances, but if you want to say Steve deserved to be there, that's fine. To me it's a popularity contest, nothing more. Still, Steph had several similar years in Phoenix, so what's the net difference? Again, your arguments about Stev's #s are fine. He had great numbers. So did Steph. In the end, neither knew how to adequately lead a team. If your PG can't run a fast break correctly, how can you honestly call them a good point guard? If they exhibit poor court vision (more than the occasional Cat/Cato alleyoops, but more of getting the ball to the proper people at the optimal time consistently), how can you call either a good point guard? It seems to me that you think I'm positing Steve/Steph to be terrible players and I'm not. I'm saying they were terrible point guards (and, by extension, floor leaders) on the whole. Had either been fortunate enough to be paired with a dominant, big point guard at some time in his career I believe they bioth could've flourished. Unfortunately, it didn't happen that way and they were both in over their heads and (imo) ultimately played a position they had no clue how to properly play. I don't dispute Steve's offcourt likability with his teammates, fwiw, and in THAT sense he is far superior to Marbury.
I agree with verse on the fact that SF was not a good PG. Other than him not being a good PG, I see no faults in his game. Why not start Mac and have Francis come in behind him? I honestly believe Francis was the best at getting the ball in to Yao. He may not be a good on the ball defender but he brings some good help defense with his athleticism.
