How come Israel is not killing the leader of Hamas?

Azadre said-

Has anyone ever killed a pope?

This statement is completely irrelevant, because nobody discussed anything comparable in this thread. My answer to him was meant to show how trivial his response was.

I have a very clear understanding of history, and I know all about the Crusades. My response to you all is- SO FREAKIN' WHAT??

Jeff says-

First off, I don't know which history classes you took, but there were plenty of civilizations that didn't kill children on purpose with reckless abandon. You are either incredibly overstating your case or you just don't know history.

I was overstating my case. I am guilty as charged here.

Besides, that does not justify the action and it is a valid comparison. Both were violent actions justified by religion. It may not seem as bad because of the passage of time, but the crusades were responsible for the deaths of thousands.

Wrong. Islam does not justify the targeted killing of defensless children. Now, you are the one overstating your case.

Maybe it happened hundreds of years ago and maybe some societies have evolved but that doesn't justify what happened and it cannot be dismissed out of hand.

That would be true if somebody tried to justify what happened during the Crusades, but nobody did.

What has happened in this thread, in my opinion, is some people who are sympathetic to the Palestinian cause are diverting attention from the BARBARIC actions of the Palestinians by mentioning the actions of crazed Christians a thousand years ago.

You guys remind me of a small child who gets caught breaking the rules, and says to his parents that "all the other kids break the rules too!!". Your argument has the irrelevance and flawed reasoning of a child.

Azadre writes-

I know, Colonists killing little native-americans was okay, and Israel killing two year olds and killing 60+year olds is okay.

Waaaaaaaah! Can I get you a tissue for those tears?

Who in the hell ever said that killing native Americans was okay?? Oh, I forgot- you are trying to change the subject.

Let me remind you what the subject was before your irrelevant comment about the Pope sidetracked us. You were justifying the murder of innocent children.

 

That's what I thought.

You misread me. I wasn't suggesting that Islam justifies killing children or that Christianity did either. I'm saying that the crusades and terrorism are examples of people using THEIR VERSION of religion to justify the killing of innocent people.

Actually, you're the one who diverted it. You asked "Has a Pope ever sent men on suicide missions to butcher teenage girls at a disco??"

I know Hydra's posts well enough to know that he is intellegent and usually fairly conservative so his pointing out the crusades, correct me if I'm wrong Hydra, is not at all condoning the terrorist actions. He was simply pointing out that you are omitting a HUGE part of history to help your cause.

Actually, it wasn't anyone here that said that. YOU were the one who brought up the Pope and were corrected, not us. I agree that Azadre's version of history (crusades being ten times worse than terrorism) is pretty narrow in vision, but, honestly, so is yours.

It is easy to see the past and dismiss it as easily as it is to see it and overblow it. In this case, you both went too far. I'm just suggesting we see the reality of what happened and what is happening, not a revisionist version to suit our own arguments.

 

Let me state something that should be fairly obvious. Personally, I'd like to know the reality, not some version of it that makes us feel better.

tbgain: You are right. People do like to divert from the real issue here but I don't think that can be assigned to one side or the other. I notice no one bothered to respond to the post where I stated that the Palestinians and Israeli negotiators and security forces became friends during negotiations.

The reality is that neither Isarel nor Palestine is all good or all bad. This is a combination of a long history and a pair of extremely short fuses. It is impossible to separate that history from the reality we face today.

However, it is easier, IMO, to dismiss one side or the other than it is to admit that these are two peoples who are having violence thrust upon them by radical right wing fundamentalists in their respective societies. There have been instances when both sides have politically supported the radicalism and other times when they have supported real and honest reform.

The problem is that they are so stripped bare by the misfortunes of their past, that neither side is able to see a way out of the cycle of violence that doesn't end in the total distruction of the other. That is the reality.

 

Hmmmm, I brought up the Pope?

I am sorry, I thought when Azadre used the word POPE, he was referring to the POPE.

I thought when he used the word POPE, he was drawing a moral comparison between killing a religious leader Catholics call the POPE, and killing a political leader of Hamas.

Geeez, talk about revisionist history!!

Jeff wrote- Both were violent actions justified by religion.

Your sentence did not completely describe the thought you were trying to convey, so it can be interpreted two ways. Thanks for your clarification, but don't complain if I took your words literally.

It is easy to see the past and dismiss it as easily as it is to see it and overblow it. In this case, you both went too far. I'm just suggesting we see the reality of what happened and what is happening, not a revisionist version to suit our own arguments.

Wrong. Irrelevant arguments should always be dismissed. His point was meant to call out the "guilty western culture males" to his defense, and he succeeded.

 

I saw the Frontline episode that you mentioned, and I agree with what you have posted here. I disagree though, about the mindset of the Israeli and Palestinian peoples. The Israelis have a free press that seeks the truth, while the Palestinians have a controlled press that lies to create hatred and violence. The Arab attitude is shaped by this disinformation, and real peace and understanding will never be achieved until truthful information flows freely to all people.

My major complaint in the analysis of this conflict is that the actions of both combatants in recent time are not morally equivalant. In my view, Israel is ready for peace if they can have security. I can not say the same for the Palestinians.

 

Just to clarify, but I originally brought up the Pope, although in different context. I believe Azadre was just asking a question based on my hypothetical.

 

This thread, just like virtually every ME thread I've seen on the BBS, has deteriorated into two sides claiming to be innocent when we all know neither one is. The Israelis have booted the Palestinians out of their homes, placed them in refugee camps and general treated them like complete **** for decades. Then they wonder why these same people want to wage war against poor Israel.

Then you have the Palestinians, who are controlled by a horribly corrupt leader who long ago sold his soul to remain in power. Refuse to see that their spiritual leaders have hijacked the religion they so loyaly follow for their own gains. Then they wonder why the World doesn't understand when they send their young into disco's and pizza parlor to kill civilians.

The most horrible thing of all is that the young in the area are being pulled in this stupid pissing contest as we speak.

 

DaDakota,

If we did a bit of substitution on your scenario.....what would be the results?

If the Palestiians decided that Sharon was the root of all the trouble and assassinated him, would that change the course/direction of Israel? Would the next leader of Israel be along the <i>Begin</i> line or more aligned with the <i>Netanyahu</i> philosophy?

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Mango

 

So...your argument is that we should all repeat earlier mistakes?

 

I would like to summarize what the lovely Tina Fey said last night on Weekend Update on SNL (a rerun of course)...i will quote, but i'm sure i won't be complete and completely accurate..please feel free to fill in the blanks....

"So President Bush says he's unclear about the situation in the Middle East. You know what? GOOD! The only people who are clear about the situation in the Middle East are the crazy people killing everybody!"

somehow i thought that was really appropriate for this and all threads related to this topic on the BBS.

 

You betcha (j/k)
I am not sure if everyone knows this, but history repeats itself in one way or another. There really is no way to avoid it. Just it happens, it's over, then it happens again.

 

It is truly sad that the Jews, the victims of the Holocauts, have reached this state where a roughly 45% of them are for ethnic cleansing.

I can´t help thinking that this is an example on a social level of what is true in psychology. The victims of sexual abusers often grow up to abuse others.

What an argument for nonviolence!

It is so sad that a basically humanitarian, largely Europeanized literate group of folks, have now become the last of the vicious colonialists.

glynch writing from beuatiful Sevilla.

 

tbagain,

Me? Sensative to the Palestinian cause? HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA. Listen to Jeff on this one, he knows what he is talking about. I just don't like it when people whitewash over very important events in history, like if someone was badmouthing the Ku Klux Klan, and then said something along the lines of "No African American has stood behind such ignorant hatred." Every culture has skeletons in its closet, and no one likes to have their dirty laundry aired.

Jeff,

First Mango, then you, I guess people are reading all of the crap I shovel onto this fine board. Always nice to be recognized.

Azadre,

We all have sympathies. I am a little more sympathetic to the Israelis, and probably on a subconcious level it is because they are more like me (Judeo-Christian, many of them European) while Arabic culture seems a little more alien. As a Persian (right?) you probably identify more easily with the Palestinians. What I will not do is condone some of the horrible things that Israel does. I think it is reprehensible that the odd Israeli butchers innocent children because he hates Palestine. I would hope that deep down you can truly believe that there is no justification for going into a crowded place and blowing up innocent civilians. I know it is very hard to change peoples' opinions on this board, but please consider this post the next time you think about something along the lines of equating murder/suicide bombing with "I see it as the Palistians are just getting back thier land ..."

All,

Hydra's radical solution to the Israeli/Palestinian problem

Zero human life cost, some face lost to Palestinians, massive monetary cost. The United States, in our role as de facto peace brokers, must purchase a large tropical paradise and the property of all the people thereupon. I was thinking something along the lines of a Fiji or Tahiti. Then, we relocate all of the Palestinians from their dirty desert home, where they are forced to live under a harsh militaristic regime and are in constant danger of massive military reprisal, to this beatiful tropical paradise. The city of Jerusalem is made an international city under the stewardship of the Japanese (or another predominantly non-Christian/Muslim/Jewish society which should have little stake in who gets what in the middle east). The nation of Isreal, in return for all of the disputed territories and a tremendous increase in safety, must pay reparations to all of the Palestinians who are not directly related, biologically or financially, to the suicide bombers and/or terrorist organizations. The Palestinians must turn over all wanted terrorists to Israeli justice. America keeps her ally in the Middle East. Violence is greatly reduced. The Palestinian people are set up in a beutiful island paradise. Everybody wins.

 

Well I do think it is r****ded that Palestinians are killing innocent's, and I feel the same about what Israeli's are doing by tearing apart houses and killing innocents. But those kids in Palestine, they fear extinction so they will goto extreme measures to survive (Blowing up "the enemy"{Israel citizens}). If I were born there and had to live like they do, you could bet you'd see me doing stupid stuff like that. I hate how the Media (US) always portrays one side (Israel) as good and the other (Palestine) evil.

 

Whats that suppose to mean? Where are the Palestinians suppose to go? Its not up to a ****ing Israeli to tell a Muslim to get of their very homes. You seem very sympathetic to the people who die in suicide bombings (so am I), but what about the people who are left homeless after some more Israeli bastards decide to prop up a new settlement?

I have never claimed Palestinians are perfect. Hamas leaders and all their suicide bombers go to hell I hope. Israel is also far from perfect.

I still dont know how Israelis elected that b**** Sharon. I hope the next suicide bomber is able to blow up his ass. Until Sharon and Arafat are in power there will be no peace.

 

Sharon was elected in the wake of Palestinian violence and an unwillingness to abide by the negotiations that had/were taking place. Warriors seem like the best leaders to choose in time of war.

 

DaDakota,

That isn't the intention/direction of the scenario. Your introductory post in this thread suggested that eliminating (changing) the spiritual leader of Hamas would facilitate a positive attitude change amongst the Hamas followers. If that is not correct, please clarify.

My scenario about abruptly changing the Israeli leader would lead to a positive attitude change amongst his right wing followers in Israel according to your logic about eliminating Sheik Yassin on the Hamas side. Sorry for the confusion.


Mango