the early 90s Blazers team

Where is the poll option for "You're trying too hard"

 

I never said they weren't a solid team.

Porter, Drexler, Kersey, B. Williams, Duckworth

Cliff Robinson and Danny Ainge off the bench.


I simply said Duckworth and B. Williams aren't elite big men that usually lead teams to championships, therefore Drexler had to do more to lead his team.

He did a fine job, but he faced 2 great teams in the Bad Boys Pistons and Jordans Bulls.

I NEVER said they weren't a good team. I commended Drexler for taking a team without an ELITE big man to the Finals.

Read my last post in the "Who will equal/surpass Jordan's 6 rings"...that will tell you everything you need to know

 

Where's the option for, "you are living in the past...its 2009, not 1990!

 

93 = Elie, Bryant > 91 in my <3

 

Don't matter, I know they were a great team. Just like anybody knows that the Celtics were a great team, and the Lakers and the Bulls.

I've seen enough games of the early 90's Blazers to know that they were great.

 

History says otherwise:

from 1975-76 to 2009: Big men on NBA championship teams.

Gasol/Odom, Garnett, Duncan, Shaq, R. Wallace/B. Wallace, Duncan, Shaq (x3), Duncan, Dream (x2), Kareem(x2), Parish/McHale, Kareem, Parish/McHale, Moses, Kareem/McAdoo, Parish/McHale, Kareem, Sikma, E. Hayes/Unseld, Walton, Cowens


The only question marks are Rasheed and Ben Wallace combo and Jack Sikma (didn't have a great playoffs individually in 79)

Only Jordan's bulls and the Bad Boys didn't need a big man to win the title.

But they got stellar production from their front court

CHemistry and depth are a part of a championship team, but MORE OFTEN THAN NOT, a team needs atleast an elite big man to win a title. There have been 2-4 exceptions in the last 35 years.
Lambier, Rodman, Salley, Edwards, Mahorn, and post option in Aguirre.

Cartwright, Grant, Rodman later on and post up option in Jordan and Pippen.

 

Blazers were a bad ass team.

I miss early 90's basketball.

 

I grew up a die-hard Blazers fan and loved them Rip City Blazers. All of your statements are very contradicting. Kevin Duckworth and B. Williams weren't "elite" in terms of being Superstars but they were the true definition of SOLID and I don't think your giving them due respect. Buck Williams was a blue collar player that put up great stats in his earlier days and he FINISHED his 17 year career averaging a double-double. He also led the league in FG% in back to back years. Perhaps if he had flashy Dunks and highlight worthy plays like Sean Kemp for example... you may have considered him elite.

This was also an Era.... late 80's- early 90's where Elite Superstars were few and far between and Elite Big men were even more scarce. You had Olajuwon, Robinson, Ewing and that's about it And NONE of them had really come into their own yet with the exception of Ewing. After Deke came into the league with Shaq and ZO the year after.. that's when we finally had some exceptional Center play around the mid 90's.

Drexler is my favorite player of all time and he truly was great but he had a TON of help on those Blazers squads.

Porter- Knew how to run the offense, could shoot the 3, penetrate, pass, create for others. Basically everything you wanted in a PG.

Drexler- The do it all Superstar.

Kersey- Athletic Forward with good size and strength.

Buck Williams- Solid as a rock. He was Mr. Dependable.

Kevin Duckworth- Big man with soft hands and a nice touch. He also made the ASG one year.

Although Drexler never had another Superstar sidekick during his tenure with the Blazers he probably couldn't have asked for a better surrounding cast top to bottom.

Jordan was just THAT DAMN GOOD.

 

They were a very, very good team. You had so many real ballers back then who knew how to play together; I always wonder how premier SF's like Carmelo and Granger would do stacked up against real beasts like Jerome Kersey when you couldn't cry every time you got knocked down. What a great era, and I don't say that out of blind nostalgia.

 

I didn't say the Blazers weren't good. Everybody knows they were very good in the late 80's, early 90's.

All I said is that, considering only 2 or 3 teams have won without an elite big man in the last 34 years is not a fluke or a coincidence. Its proof that you ALMOST HAVE to have an elite big men, or atleast elite interior presence/rebounding (Bad Boys Pistons)

I know Buck Williams was a solid power forward and he had some great stats early...I know.

That team did have chemistry, and I've said numerous times on this thread that this team had a stud in Drexler, the 2nd best shooting guard behind Jordan at the time (nothing to be ashamed of) and solid role players.

I didn't say he didn't have help. I simply said, its harder to win without an elite big man, and history has proven that. It is also hard to win without more than 1 all star or HOF's. History has proven that also.

That was all I was saying. I wasn't trying to take anything away from a very good team. I give them their credit.

I commend Drexler for "going against the odds" and leading a team without another "great all star" (not 1 or 2 timers such as Duckworht/Porter) or an elite big men.

I have nothing but respect for this team. I guess people read it in the wrong context...enough for somebody to start a freakin poll about it.

By the way, I voted that team was very good, not drexler was by himself with a bunch of scrubs.

 

The trend of saying that a star's teammates suck in order to prop up the star seems to be widespread. Kobe vs. Lebron debates frequently degenerate into a discussion of whose teammates suck more. A frequent defense for McGrady's first round jinx is that his teammates sucked. For an older example, Wilt fans always say that his teammates sucked, which they didn't after around 1964 or so. IMO it's an unfortunate side (direct?) effect of the tendency in basketball to glorify the individual's accomplishments.

 

Well the Kobe vs. Lebron issue is that, Lebron has always carried his team year after year (since 06) past the 1st round, he's gotten the Cavs to the Finals once, took the Celtics to 7 games, and led his team to the best record (66 wins), and the ECF this past season, and had a unbelievable playoff run individually

In all honesty, on the offensive side, he has not had much help at all. ALL the pressure is on him to create and score for the team. He's had shooters, rebounders, good team defense, and a 7'3 center who can shoot.

His coach is also an idiot in all honesty as well.

But he's had nobody to create for him.

Kobe, has had success (4 titles), but he needed a prime Shaq for his 1st 3 titles and Gasol for the 2008 playoff run and 2009 title.

The 3 years Kobe didn't have an elite big man, he didn't make the playoffs, and lost in the 1st round 2 years in a row (blew a 3-1 lead in 2006). Even that those 2 playoff teams had Odom on the team, who could create and is a nightmare matchup and a good rebounder.

He was also coached by Phil Jackson.

I'm not saying it was Kobe's fault necessarily, but when another player he is compared to leads his team year after year deep in the playoffs, its hard not to notice.


So when you look at it, Kobe can't get out of the 1st round without an elite big man, while Lebron gets out of the 1st round no matter what (at a much younger age) and he gets them deep into the playoffs, and even had them as the #1 seed in the NBA with Mo Williams as his next best player?


It does prove that NBA championships can't be won by 1 player, and that it takes depth and elite production from atleast 1 big man and atleast 1 guard/wing player.

It also says that, Lebron is great enough at age 25 that he, similar to Jordan and Drexler, does not need an ELITE big man to lead his team to the Finals, or deep into the playoffs year after year.

Its not a knock on Kobe, because those Lakers teams were not very good at all, but I think it is more of a compliment to Lebron, because his teams aren't exactly great either...

Here are some of the guys that have started on his teams:

Eric Snow, Boobie Gibson, Wally Szerbiak, Sasha Pavlovic, Anderson Varejao, Ben Wallace (old), Donyell Marshall,

The only solid players he's had starting were Ilgauskus, Larry Hughes (sort of), Delonte West (undersized) and Mo Williams.

So in that argument, I think Lebron just has this on his side.

Its not like Kobe is the only player who can't succeed without an ELITE big man or somebody else to create for him.

Pierce (only 4 playoff appearances before 2008 in 9 years),
Tmac (0-7 in playoff series)
Carmell0 (0-5 before Billups came)
Brandon Roy (0-1, despite a great series individually)


It is just very hard to overrachieve like that...Lebron is just one of the guys who is able to do so year after year. Its just a compliment to him, not diminishing Kobe's game though.

 

Personally I find it distasteful when fans will go to great lengths to discredit a star's teammates/coach just to prop up the star, not to mention using flawed arguments; Mike Brown coached Lebron to play defense (he played none upon entering the league) and his teams are perennially near the top defensively. Mo Williams was an All-Star and played well off Lebron, Delonte is a decent player especially defensively, Ilgauskas is still an above average center, and I forgot when Pau Gasol became an elite big man who deserves to be in the same sentence as prime Shaquille O'Neal, or when Lamar Odom was actually consistent enough for the Lakers to be the player you describe.

It's especially obvious that people are trying too hard when they said that the early 90's Blazers were Drexler and a bunch of scrubs; Porter and Kersey were very good players, and Duckworth and Buck Williams were very solid big men, especially defensively and on the boards.

 

I said Ilgauskus and West were 2 of the few decent players he played with. I gave them credit. I mentioned Ilguaskus can hit a jumper and is 7'3. But he aint elite. He's not a consistent low post scorer though. He is more of a jump shooter.

West is a good defender, but he is undersized, but a nice player nonetheless.

Mike Brown is an excellent defensive coach...I was talking about offense though. He didn't make a single adjustment in the Magic series (it was get Lebron the ball and stay out of his way). He is offensively challenged. What did he do vs. Detroit? Isolate Lebron...vs.Celtics isolate Lebron...vs. Spurs isolate Lebron, even though he was struggling horribly.

Most of the timeouts late in the game, his assistants were doing all the X's and O's for the players...you don't see Text Winter or Jimmy Clemens doing that for the Lakers...its always Phil Jackson.

Mo Williams is a glorified B.J. Armstrong...he is a nice shooter. He can't pass, he isn't a great finisher when driving. He is quick and can score off the dribble at times and hit open 3's. He helped, no doubt, but he is nowhere near a reliable 2nd option. He proved that in the playoffs.

Pau Gasol showed last year that he was elite. The year before, KG made him look pretty bad, but Gasol bounced back this past season. You can give him the ball down low, and he can create his own shot.

He can hit a 20 foot jumper, he can run the floor, he can pass well, and he can play defense (shut down Dwight Howard last year while Ilgauskus made Howard look like a prime Shaq).

I would say he is an elite big man in this league, who is better? Yao, Duncan, Al Jefferson, Dwight Howard, and maybe Bosh and KG (right now)

That means at worst, he's the 8th best big man, 5th best power forward, in the league. I think he's better than Bosh and Stoudamire personally and 38 year old Shaq.

You do make a point about Odom though...but that doesn't change the fact that he is able to create for the Lakers when Kobe needs him to...Lebron had Larry Hughes (horrible with Cavs and Boobie Gibson and Mo Williams (overrated)


I NEVER said that Drexler's teams weren't good in Portland. I said comparing his team to the last 34 champions (outside of the Bulls and Bad Boys Pistons), his big men weren't elite like those teams. NBA history has shown that much more often than not, you need an elite big man to win a title, sometimes 2.

Duckworth and Williams were nice, solid players and were productive, but they weren't elite.

 

A better question would be:

Is 94 Rockets just Hakeem with a bunch of ok players?

Is 04 Pistons a bunch of ok players with no stars?

It's just about how you define "ok players" and "stars".