Will any current NBA players tie or eclipse Jordan's 6 rings?

West played with Wilt and Goodrich

Bird played with Parish, McHale, Dennis Johnson, Bill Walton and Cedric Maxwell.

Magic played with Kareem, Worthy, Wilkes, Norm Nixon, Bob McAdoo, and Orlando Woolridge later on.

Jordan had Pippen for his 1st 3, and then Pippen, Rodman (defense and rebounding only) and Kukoc (6th man).

Jordan had much less to work with, especially from a scoring standpoint. Defensively, he was blessed with guys like Pippen, Grant, Rodman, and Harper. Even Cartwright wasn't bad.

Jordan had much more of a traditional team, where as the players before him (before free agency era) were on stacked teams for many years.

You are right though...he had to be the Finals MVP, but the reason is, if he wasn't, his team doesn't win.

Pippen wasn't ready to be the man, until 93 or 94, and by 98 he was having serious back issues. His peak was from 94-97. from 90-92, he was mainly all about defense and handling the ball for Jordan.

He scored a lot of his points in transition or on hustle plays or off double teams from Jordan. By 93, he could iso a little better and started improving his outside jumper a little bit.

But by 94, he could iso pretty well, and he was taking a lot of 3 pointers, but could also beat you off the dribble from time to time. When MJ came back, he was even better at these things, and allowed an older, less athletic MJ to get his rest and atleast maintain the lead while he was sitting out.

Jordan's peak was from 87-93, but he was still very efficient and productive from 96-98...he was just less flashy and high flying. With the Bulls, there was no other option other than Jordan to win a Finals MVP.

 

I am not sure whether you really watched MJ's final games.

Actully, the bulls were never dominating in finals. If MJ didn't play at the MVP level, they wouldn't win the titles at all. Of course, MJ never disappointed fans. He always played great in finals.

I have nothing against Duncan. But, you said he could care less who the man is on the spurs. I disagree. The fact is that he sucked in the last final game in 2007. Otherwise, he would get another MVP.

btw, I think the 2005 final MVP should have blonged to Manu.

 

Granted it was only for 4 titles (and he was a benchwarmer for 2 of them), but John Salley has won titles on 3 different teams also (Piston, Bulls, Lakers).

 

Robert Horry is a very good role player, but he did play with 3 of the greatest big men to ever play this game. He also gets a productive Drexler for 1.5 seasons

As a rookie he came in and played with Dream in his prime for 4 years:

result: 2 championships in 4 years

he then gets traded twice and ends up in LA where Shaq is on the verge of hitting his prime, but is derailed by injuries the 1st 2 years, and then he hits his prime and dominates like nobody else ever had in the modern era. To add to that, a talented Kobe Bryant is on the team as well, although younger and with less bball IQ

result: 3 championships in 6.5 years

After that, he leaves for San Antonio, where Tim Duncan is still in the latter part of his prime, and has 2 young talents in Parker and Ginobili.

result: 2 championships in 5 years (he missed a lot of games his last 3 years)

The one common thing about all 3 teams: A GOAT type of big man, great scoring wing (2 with the Spurs),

and veterans who knew how to win championships such as Mario Elie, Otis Thorpe, Kenny Smith, Vernon Maxwell (before he quit), Derek Fisher, Rick Fox, Horace Grant, Ron Harper, Brian Shaw, Lindsey Hunter, Devean George, Glen Rice, Bruce Bowen, Brent Barry, Michael Finley, and Kurt Thomas.

Also, 3 great head coaches in Rudy T., Phil Jackson, and Greg Pappovich

I think it is safe to say that he has been given more than enough opportunities to succeed...but he did hit the big shots and earned his nick name.

 

Those are nice info again from you, but I was talking about John Salley...

But yeah, Big Shot Bob (his original moniker lol) made the most of opportunities on each team he was in...minus the Suns.

 

John Salley was pretty lucky as well. Got to play with the Bad Boys and the Bulls. Same with Dennis Rodman, except he was a big part in both teams.

 

Don't forget Steve Kerr, owner of 5 rings (4 of them consecutively).

 

Agreed on most points, but I think for the second three titles, Jordan could've scaled his game back a bit, and let Pippen do a little more. Pippen I could see getting one MVP, but don't get me wrong. It was MJ's show, no doubt. But I believe Pippen proved the year MJ was out, 93-94, that he could handle a heavier scoring load. Jordan had to be the Bulls scoring leader in all 6 Finals for them to win, probably, but perhaps by a thinner margin for the second three-peat. MJ did have less talent than West, Bird, and Magic. West shot horribly in 1972, but they won in 5 anyway. Bird was slowed by Robert Reid in 1981, but the series was a mismatch. Magic was unique, the ultimate team player, but always surrounded by talent.
I've always believed that even if Jordan had been paired with a truly great scorer in Chicago(which he never was), he wouldn't have allowed that guy to approach his own scoring output. That's why Pippen was the perfect sidekick, because he never threatened MJ in that regard. He was the ultimate role player. The Bulls were an odd title team in the respect that there was such a huge gap in scoring between #1 and #2. But it worked for them.

 

In 96', the Bulls went up 3-0 on Seattle, then eased up, but I'd say they dominated that series, over a 64 win team. They whipped LA in 91' in 5 games, and were never pushed to a 7th game. They didn't always dominate, but they were never pushed to the brink, either.
As for Duncan, by the fourth game of the 2007 Finals, they were up 3-0 over a totally overmatched team. He didn't need to dominate every game, and has never needed to. He's proven you can be an unselfish superstar and win titles. No, he's not in Jordan's class, but he's been the best player on 4 title teams.
Jordan did have to dominate in those Finals, just not quite so much. He could've allowed Pippen one MVP at least and still got his titles.

 

Duncan tried hard in that final game, and he wanted to be the MVP, but he sucked! Go back to watch that game again! Plus, the 2005 MVP should have belonged to Manu! Even SA fans booed him when they gave the award to him!

btw, I think Duncan is probably the luckiest palyer in nba history. In his rookie years, he played with David Robinson, and then played with Manu. His leadship never be truly tested until last playoffs without Manu. Unfortunately, we all know the result. The mavs beat them 4-1 in the 1st round! Without Tmac and losing Yao in the 3rd game, the rockets still took the lakers to Game 7! I can say that Scola and Battier are better leader than Duncan! You can say that the mavs are a bad matchup for the spurs. But, even the jazz are a bad matchup for the rockets, without Yao (also, no Rafer in the first two games) and with one leg Tmac, the rockets still took the jazz to 6 games!

About Pippen, he had his own chance after MJ retired. He played for us and the blazers. But he never showed he was a franchise player.

 

I don't think anyone would say that about Duncan. He is lucky that he had manu??

 

Of course, he is lucky that he had Manu!!!

 

Well, without Jordan, Pippen still couldn't average over 22 ppg. Jordan in the 93 Finals averaged 41 ppg.

In 1996 and 1998 Playoffs, Pippen averaged 17 and 16 ppg. In 97, he got up to 19 ppg.

In 1996, Jordan averaged 30 ppg in the playoffs.

In 1997, Jordan averaged 31 ppg in the playoffs

In 1998, Jordan (age 35) averaged 32 ppg in the playoffs.

Even in 1995, when Pippen had Jordan for only 17 games and the playoffs, he still only averaged 17 ppg while Jordan averaged 31.5 ppg for the playoffs.


In 1994, without Jordan at all Pippen still only averaged 23 ppg.

Pippen was never a great scorer. He got his points in transition, off of steals, slashing in Phil Jackson's triangle offense, moving without the ball a lot, and transition 3 pointers later on. He was also very good at using the glass.

But you rarely saw Pippen beat somebody off the dribble in the half court. He would use a pick or move without the ball. He improved a little bit on these things in 94, and by 96 his 3 pointers became better as well.

But Jordan had the best foot work in the game along with Olajuwon, he could post up, he could drive, he could score without the ball, he could beat you off the dribble, he could use picks, and had an assortment of moves for each aspect of offense. Plus he was a great finisher as well with his hang time.

Jordan was the no brainer best offensive player on the Bulls. Notice, once Pippen's athleticism left him by 98 and 99, he lost most of his scoring ability.

Jordan at age 41 still averaged 20 ppg. He was just a much more skilled offensive player than Pippen ever was.

Here are some other wings that were better scorers than Pippen in the 90's:

Drexler, Richmond, Miller, Chris Mullen, Glen Rice, Steve Smith, Penny Hardaway, Sprewell, Grant HIll, Jamal Mashburn, Sean Elliot, etc.

Pippen was a better ball handler than most of these guys (except Hill and Hardaway) and was a better defender than all of them (Sprewell was comparable, but much smaller).

Pippen was also the perfect compliment to Jordan though, especially on defense...their pressing defense was amazing.

 

Duncan is the best power forward of all time. There is no doubt about that. Parker and Ginobili couldn't lead a team to the Playoffs without Duncan.

They are lucky to be found by the Spurs scouting team, or else they would still be playing internationally right now.

Oh ya, who do you think frees up Manu and TP?? The guy constantly getting double teamed in Tim Duncan, yet he still puts up atleast 20 and 10 for 12 years now.

Just look at the 03 Finals if you have any doubt about how great Duncan is. He had a near quadrouple double in Game 6 vs. the Nets.

Manu also had games where he scored only 7 points and 12 points in the Finals...Finals MVP's find a way to produce.

Tim Duncan, averaged 21 ppg, 14 rpg, and 2 bpg. He did everything for the Spurs. Ginobili simply took advantage of Duncan's presence. Not saying he wasn't a good player or a key player, but Duncan was no doubt the leader of that team.

 

It's too early to tell. I remember Shaq was even considered as the best player ever during his LA time.

How do you know that? In fact, in 2007-08 season, when Duncan was injured, Manu lead the team to beat many good teams.

Without Duncan, Manu won euroleague MVP and Olympics MVP!

 

The same can be said about Jordan having Pippen, and Shaq having Kobe, and Bird having McHale, and Magic having Kareem and Worthy, and so on and so forth.

This is the problem with ring counting. Winning is a team achievement, not an individual achievement. All the great players who won titles are "lucky" to have a TEAM to accomplish what they have accomplished.

 

At this moment in time, Duncan is superior to McHale, Barkley, Malone, Garnett, and Rodman. His combination of efficiency, footwork, post up ability, defense, and rebounding is unmatched. His longevity is very good as well.

McHale started out as a bench player, and had a top 10 type of player of all time on his team freed him up a lot as well. Plus he wasn't a great rebounder or defender.

Barkley was very efficient and a great rebounder, but he wasn't a good defender. Plus he was only able to lead his team to the Finals once, even after he got talent.

Malone is efficient as well, but Stockton spoon fed him a lot of his points, and he was more a product of the system. Plus his rebounding isn't impressive for his size, and he was an average defender at best.

Garnett was a unique talent, but he wasn't as efficient as others. His defense maybe even better than Duncan's, I would say atleast equal. But his lack of success without 2 future HOF's can't be ignored.

There are other guys like Elvin Hayes and Bob Pettit, but I don't know enough about them. All I know is, that nobody compares them to Tim Duncan.

Until somebody comes in and dominates consistently for 12 years and win 4 titles the way Duncan did, its safe to say Duncan is the Greatest Power Forward of All Time.

He would probably be a top 15 big man of all time too. He is often compared to Shaq and Dream, and rightfully so. I think he is behind both of them, but it is impressive that he can be mentioned in the same sentance with them.



The international game is very different from the NBA game...thus the Redeem Team had to hire a college coach to prepare them to face zones.

Manu will go down as one of the greatest international players though. So will, Luis Scola, Vlade Divac, Drazen Petrovic, Dirk Nowitzki, Pau Gasol.

Its a nice honor, but its not an NBA thing. I think Manu will be in the Hall of Fame though, because of his stellar play in the international games.

Also, remember, Argentina is a very talented team...they arent' a bunch of scrubs over there. Its not like he's in Dirk or Yao's position (no help).


But there is no way Manu without Tim Duncan can lead a team to a good record and definetily not a championship. Besides, Duncan only missed 4 games in 2007-08, and only 15 games the last 4 seasons total.

There are many wing players that are much mroe talented than Ginobili in the NBA:

Kobe, Lebron, Dwade, Paul Pierce, Brandon Roy, Carmello Anthony, Tmac, Danny Granger, Kevin Durant, Allen Iverson, Joe Johnson, Ray Allen, Vince Carter,

The only one's out of these that could lead their team to a Finals without a post up scorer has been Lebron and Allen Iverson. Even Kobe needed a dominant Shaq and a solid Gasol to reach the Finals.

What makes you think Ginobili, who is less talented than all of these guys I listed, could lead a team to the Finals as the #1 option IN THE NBA??

 

I want to use MJ's words: That is just your opinon.

 

Thats my opinion, and based on his talent, I think it is proof that he would not be able to lead a team.

He is still a good, solid player, and an All star talent.

But if Kobe Bryant, top 15 all time player, a top 5 shooting guard of all time cannot lead his team to the Finals without a good big man, what makes you think Ginobili can?

What makes you think Ginobili can lead a team to win the Finals? Drexler got to the Finals twice without any big man, and lost both times, and he could do a little bit of everything.

Ginobili as the best option on a team is not what you would call a "matchup nightmare". Kobe, Lebron, Dwade, Tmac(prime), Pierce, AI, Roy etc. those guys are.

Those guys constantly get double teamed and yet they still averaged 25+ ppg, some 30 + ppg.

Ginobili is has never averaged more than 31 mpg, what makes you think he could last a season and still be as productive if he played 40-43 mpg for 70+ games?

He gets a lot of his points vs. 2nd team units, the other guys I mentioned, get the majority of their points vs. the other team's starters.

Even when Ginobili starts, he has Duncan and Parker to take pressure off of him. The other guys usually had to play and score and create against double teams. They rarely saw single coverage.

He is a great international player and a very good player off the bench, maybe one of the best ever with the likes of McHale and Vinny Johnson. But he's no supreme talent at the shooting guard position.

 

Once again, that is just your opinion. And, it's very subjective!

btw, you forget one thing, if Manu didn't play with Duncan, he could play with other players by using Duncan's 20 millions salary.