Let me add to that, Grant Hill wasn't the leader in Phoenix either so you really can't fault him anymore. There is no double standard. Uh no, It's nothing like that. Either way Chris Paul has already led his team to the 2nd round and If I recall correctly the Mavericks were actually the ones favorite before the series started. Then he ended up leading the Hornets to a Game 7 against the former champs Spurs. So really, I hate how you keep comparing T-Mac to all these players that supposedly failed when they really didn't or never did. I don't, but the superstar will get most of the blame and that's all I'm doing. 2 years ago, Kobe would've been able to take that team to the 2nd round at the very least. First off, he wouldn't have been injured and Second off, he would have been playing at his best or elevating his level of play. That 2008 Team was good enough to advance to the 2nd round. T-Mac wasn't good enough to lead them though. So really, stop with the exaggerations.
I believe Tim Duncan is the greatest power forward of all time and Shaq is a top 5 center of all time. So to compare Tmac to them is not right. I do agree that Tmac had a spectacular 02-03 season, however his team around him was just horrible. I think talent wise, he may be top 10 of all time...simply based on the things he is able to do on the basketball court with his size. However injuries (himself and other star players i.e. Hill and Yao) and bad management has made succeeding in the playoffs a very difficult challenge for Tmac. Also another MAJOR flaw in comparing big men to wing players is the fact that big men can control how the team rebounds and how they defend the basket...a wing player can only do so much in that department. Thats why when a big men, minus Hakeem and Duncan doesn't have a star wing player, it usually doesn't work out. Duncan is the greatest power forward of all time for a reason...the fact that he won 2 titles before Parker and Ginobili emerged is impressive. Shaq played with Penny, Kobe, Dwade, Nash, and now Lebron...he's been pretty damn blessed with talent if you ask me. Imagine what Dream could've done in his early years if he had the slightest bit of help from a creating/scoring standpoint. One more important thing...every successful team needs depth at multiple positions...Tmac only had that in 2008 and 2009...one year Yao is hurt, the next year he is hurt. Tmac with Bo Outlaw (leading rebounder shot blocker for 3 seasons)/Drew Gooden (03 playoffs only)/ Andrew DeClerque/ Pat Burke/ Steven Hunter/John Amechi/ fat Shawn Kemp/ old Patrick Ewing...4 playoff appearances no 1st round series wins. Tmac was tied for rebounding and blocked shots his 1st 2 seasons with Orlando!!! A shooting guard should not be leading a team in blocked shots and rebounding! Especially while he's leading the league in scoring and averaging 5 apg and has to do everything for the team to win. Its not fair to put all the blame on TMac. A great example is Scottie Pippen in 94 vs. 95 season. In 1994 with Horace Grant, they go 55-27 (only 2 less than with Jordan the previous year), and lose in game 7 in the 2nd round. However, in 95, Grant leaves, and the rest of the team is basically the same, yet the Bulls are 34-31 before Jordan comes back to lead them to a respectable 47 wins. Pippen played great both years, leading his team in almost every single statistical category, but there was only so much he could do…without rebounding and inside presence, its too hard to win in the NBA. When they got Rodman the next 3 years, they won 72, 69, and 62 games. No way they do that without Rodman, no matter how great MJ was playing. Back to Tmac… What about Houston with Yao ming? In 2005, Yao was still developing and still played somewhat soft. He did however have a good scoring series, but rebounded poorly, and that team was old and was not deep. Ryan Bowen was starting at power forward...David Wesley was our starting 2. In 2007, Yao was much more of a defensive presence inside, except when he had to guard Boozer. But I cut Yao some slack, since he wasn't right after the injury. He looked about 85 % mobility wise. Even his shooting was bad for his standards (44%) and had 33 turnovers in 7 games (ouch!). But once again, that team was not deep...game 4 only 4 players score!! But basketball is a team sport. There are a few greats who can overrachieve (Duncan, Dream, Jordan, Lebron etc.). But look at some of the greats that have won titles... Bird, Magic, Kareem, Oscar Robertson, Isaiah Thomas, Joe Dumars, Bill Russell, etc. Those guys were VERY BLESSED throughout their careers as far as talent goes. Imagine if Barkley had some talent in Philly in the late 80's and early 90's. Imagine if Drexler had a true post scoring option in his prime. Imagine if Reggie Miller had a decent 2nd option scorer each of the 6 seasons he made it to the Eastern Conference Finals and came up just short. What would Dirk be on a team without talent? He's always been on teams with talent. Does that mean he's better than Garnett was in Minnasota? Garnett got out of the 1st round once in Minnasota, while Dirk's teams were much more successful in the playoffs...Not a fair comparison, is it? These were when these guys were in their primes. Tmac in his prime had Jacque Vaughn and Drew Gooden as his next best players starting next to him...while Shaq had Kobe, Fisher, and Horry and Duncan had Parker, DRob and Ginobli...Tmac's surrounding talent was simply horrible to be quite honest. Imagine if Pierce, Garnett and Allen never made it together on the same team? They would all probably still be on lottery teams. The point I'm making is, only a handful of players can consistently win with a lack of all stars. Even Jordan had Pippen and either Grant or Rodman to take a lot of the dirty work and defensive responsiblities from him. Basketball is a TEAM SPORT. Now I will say it is absurd to say Tmac was better than Duncan or Shaq, but he did have a great season in 02-03. However, it is also absurd to say that Tmac was not a top 5 player in 2005. He was very talented and skilled...however Dirk and Wade were on much more taletned teams and thus succeeded. Same with Nash. Kobe actually had a very off year in 2005, so I would say Tmac was better than him that season. But to even it off, Tmac wasn't as good as Duncan or Shaq overall in 2003, but he was in my opinion better than Dirk (who he shut down in the playoffs that year), Wade, and Kobe.
This is where we disagree a bit. Dirk managed to lead a team with no all-stars in 2006 to the NBA Finals. Again, it may not be an accomplishment to lead a team to the Finals only to lose, but he managed to get them there and with no All-Star players and that's an accomplishment in my book. After the 2004 Season, Dirk surpassed T-Mac and never looked back. I do agree in 05, T-Mac was ahead of Kobe though, but I am not so sure about Dwyane Wade.
Are we talking about the same sport here? Did you just say height doesn't give one an advantage in basketball? Really? Is that why the average nba height is 6'7? To answer your question yeah I've seen hayes get torched by Gasol.
McGrady knows he has to prove he's still got talent after coming off that shady (media wise) surgery last season. He's got his financial and professional future on the line this year. I'm willing to give him this year with the team we have or will have throughout the season. If things aren't going as planned and playoffs look out of the question, you shop for a good deal.
Duncan, Jordan, Kareem, Shaq, Kobe, Olajuwon, Magic, Bird, Wilt, Lebron are all better than Russell. Oh yeah and if your trying to imply that kobe was more valuable than Shaq your dead wrong. Tmac's 2nd option was a rookie drew gooden. G Hill played on a team with Steve Nash and Amare Stoudamire. That's more help than tmac's ever had Yao put up 25/10 while giving up 25/10. Putting up 10/10 while limiting the opposition to 5/5 would be more effective than the latter. Yao against Amare would have been disastrous for Yao. If boozer gave yao fits I could only imagine what Amare would have done to Yao.
LeBron? Your right, a guy who has won absolutely nothing in the NBA except ONE NBA MVP is better than a player who has won 11 championships and 5 NBA MVPs and is also the greatest defender to ever play the game. Yep. Since when was Grant Hill the leader of that Suns team? Still don't get it do you. Both Boozer and Okur is what was the mismatch. Yao doesn't have a hard time against Amare, because Amare is not very good at creating for himself like Boozer was. Not to mention, Amare would have to guard Yao, so we are talking 30/10 for Yao now, not 25/10.
theblacknight, awesome post. a lot of the tracy discussions go back and forth and in circles, but you generally tend to /thread most of the time with your posts.
When did you start watching basketball? Did you see when the rockets used to play the suns and they would guard him with marion,amare, or diaw? Amare used to get his all the time vs the rockets and yao used to be on and off. One minute he drops 30, the next he drops 12.
Really.... http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=stoudam01&p2=mingya01 Is that why, Career Head to head shows if anything Yao Ming is the one that outplays Amare? The only year/season I see Amare managing to outplay Yao was in 2005. That was a Young Yao Ming and that was the season the Suns were the 1st seed and the season that Steve Nash was the MVP. That makes all the difference. In 2006-2007, You see the difference Yao was outplaying Amare most of the time if anything.
Did you even bother watching the games? Anyone on this board will tell you how up and down yao has been vs phoenix. Then you say that was a young Yao, Amare came straight out of highschool.
And you don't think Steve Nash makes any of the difference. You know the 2005 NBA MVP Steve Nash, which is the year I am talking about. Nash boosted the growth and production of Amare's game. Who boosted Yao's? T-Mac? and Yes I did watch the games, getting dunked on doesn't mean you got outplayed or owned, so try again.
So you dont think Tracy spoon feeding Yao doesn't make hi game easier? Go and look up Yao's numbers when he plays' with tracy and when he doesn't.
Russell won 11 chips with like 3 HOF players on his team, during a time where there were only 11 teams, and against very, very weak competiton. This guy has a 14ppg career average during the 50-60s that's awful. Most centers back then were 6'7. Scrubs in this era would dominate the 50/60s. Lebron would put up 50/10/10. It's funny how you say Russell is the best defender of all time when Russell would always get eaten alive by Wilt. I'd love to see Bill go up against Shaq who probably has 120 pounds on Bill. So Grant can't make it past the first round as the leader and as a role player. This is usually the time when washed up player steal a ring. Poor Grant can't even make it past the first round. Even if Amare isn't great at creating shots, which isn't true btw, he still has a guy named Steve Nash on his team.
