For the #4? NOOOO!!!!! #4 would likely net us my least favorite person (ok, besides whoever goes to the Jazz ) in the draft, Fizer. Why do we want Kenny Thomas, only fatter, and a little better on the offensive end? For the #3, now you're talking. #3 gets us Stromile Swift (ASSUMING he comes out, and so does Mihm), and adding Stromile Swift would be a very good thing. ------------------ Rockets fans wanted at hoopsboards.com Draft Chat, NBA Chat, Team Chat, and more!
Pops -- I love reading your threads this time of year. On a distantly related topic (in fact, this may deserve a seperate thread) -- I am interested in your thoughts on Duncan moving from San Antonio after the Spurs first round collapse. Also -- and I realize this may be sensitive info -- could you elaborate at all on the personal issues that may be driving Duncan from SA and into Houston. Could a Rocket move into the top 4 factor into a Duncan FA deal? I could imagine a plausible scenario where the Rockets could dangle a top four pick and a coulpa warm bodies for Duncan. I could see SA going for it if the alternative is losing Duncan all together with nothing in return. Thoughts, Popeye? ------------------
heypartner, Why would they (Orlando) want to sign off on a Cato deal with Duncan still unsigned? Filling up their cap space that fast makes little sense for the Magic. If Orlando owes a pick to Houston, couldn't that be some of what it would take to even things out? Could send a lesser body than Cato if it is sending over 2 picks for one as popeye wrote it. With so many expiring contracts, sign-and-trades would be to Orlando's benefit, but that couldn't be completed until late summer. Mango ------------------ The Serious Police are watching Donate Blood
Popey :O You did a great investigative work to get this information. Sure like you said that the actual order must be sorted; but for the Rockets to be talking about moving up in the draft continues to show the excellence of this team. But, if teams are listening, that means that the Rockets are offering something. Come on, I want Swift to be a Rocket. And at the 4th pick, Swift is a real possibility. Or how about Miller? Those are two guys who can help this team become a contender. Forget K-Mart, Mihm, and Fizer. Swift or Miller are the target men!!!!! ------------------
About that #4 and bodies thing for Duncan. Hmmm... it might work, but it would have to prove that houston was his #1 choice. San Antonio would not willingly let him make it onto a team in the same division. If SA has no chance in resigning Duncan, they'd prefer him to sign elswhere, perhaps onto a team in the Easter Conference, i.e. Orlando. Elie17 ------------------
Mango man,,, What not answer my questions first? Cop out!!!!!!!!! What are you saying? That you think Orlando is just going to do a straight 3 for 9 trade? That's foolish. Keep it simple. They will get market value for that pick. One way or another. You want some thinking within Popeye's limits, yet outside of the box: It could equally work this way: Orlando trades #3 to Vanc for #4 Vancouver trades #3 and Reeves to Houston for #9 and Cato and TMass Orlando gets #4 Houston gets #THREEEEE and Reeves Vancouver gets #9, Cato and TMass back Note: Cato is not being paid $5.33 until Aug 1st. He is still on rookie scale. Look at it this way. Why would Vancouver trade up one spot when they have such a lame center, when instead they can trade down for a................... 7 Footer CATO CATO CATO. ---------------- $42m for 6yrs now equals $7m for 3yrs
Okay since Elie #17 showed an interest I'll play GM for a second and placate HeyPartner at the same time. Duncan is surrounded by aging personnel in SA. He can't be thinking of staying in SA when you consider his other opportunities in cities like Orlando, Chicago, and yes......Houston. Let's assume for a moment that he likes the young core of talent in Houston, the organization, the suffocating humidity, and big-city traffic. Let's also assume that Duncan is not all about the money, doesn't like golf or gated communities, and great weather year round. Orlando spends all of its capspace on Grant Hill or McGrady -- So Orlando is out of the sweeps. We offer Cato, Drew and the #4 pick to SA for Duncan. SA has a young big man at center, the Admiral moves over to power forward, they acquire a small point guard in Drew (a cross between AJ and a younger Del Negro) -- they can pick up a big power forward like Fizer or a talent like Swift. Dangle Kenny Thomas if they don't like Drew.............hell, anything could happen. I can dream can't I? ------------------
Heypartner-- I find it hard to believe that Orlando would give up the #3 for the #9 too, but it could happen. They owe several first round picks to several different teams. If they give one good pick to the Grizz (who they owe a first rounder to), and the Grizz give their own first rounder to the Rockets (who Orlando owes a first rounder to), both the Rockets and the Grizz move up in the draft. They way I'm reading Popeye's post is that this would negate those two obligations (to the Rockets and the Grizz). Essentially, Orlando uses one first rounder to satisfy two obligations--and the only price they pay is to move down to an almost guaranteed #9 spot. It seems like a great move for all teams--and it requires no player movement whatsoever. If Orlando thinks the draft is deep enough or if they think the players they really want will be available in the middle of the first round, this is a no-brainer for them. This may not involve any players at all. ------------------ stop posting my damn signature
hp- Who here honestly believes this is a three way involving only picks? This hypothetical trade would almost definitely involve Rocket player(s) changing uniforms. But don't forget Orlando owes us a first rounder. Now, if that first rounder is unrestricted in any way, I don't see why they couldn't just dump pick #25 on us or something, rather than go through this trade to get around what they owe us. There's no way that #9 plus #25 is good value for #4. But perhaps the pick is restricted... I dunno. 5 spots for Cato...well worth it. Dude. I couldn't possibly disagree more. First off, Martin, Fizer and Swift will likely be gone in the top 3 picks. But this is a moot point since lottery order has not been established. I will say wholeheartedly that Cato plus #9 is absolutely better value than any single player in the draft: Martin, Swift, whoever. There will be an excellent player available at 9. More and more underclassmen will declare in the next few weeks. Badasses like Demarr Jonson, Miles or Miller could drop down there. If we packaged Cato plus the #9 to get the first pick, I'd be hyped to get a possible franchise PF, but there is no way that Martin or Swift could bring to the team what Cato plus x player #9 could bring to the team. That is not a good trade, not even for the first pick, much less the frickin' fourth. Throw Bo Orlando in, yeah, that's closer. I agree, I don't see Orlando wanting our role players, with perhaps the exception of Massenburg and Drew. But if we're losing Cato, we had better be getting some serious damn muscle in the middle, not just some athletic undersized 4 with great potential. The only other legit center on the Houston Rockets is Olajuwon. We lose a lot more than a big contract when we lose Cato. ------------------
As much as I would like to get a top 3 pick, trading Cato and the 9th to move up 6 spots could be a dangerous proposition. If KT, Drew and the 9th is not enough to move up, then the Rockets may have to stay with the 9th pick and hope Moiso falls to them. I would feel a little safer making a deal like this if the Rockets had an adequate 7 footer in mind they could acquire or maybe if they think felt they could somehow re-juvenate Reeves career in the deal HeyPartner suggested. It would concern me if the Rockets have to go with a player like Pig Miller or Carlos Rogers as the starting center. ------------------ Check out the Best Source for Draft Info Draftsource.net
I agree with heypartner that Cato is gone to Van. I just hope we don't get stuck with that stiff Reeves.Orlando wants to drop down because they don't want to pay mega-bucks to an unproven commodity. I think Doc Rivers has his sights set on Duncan. He used to rave about him when he broadcast spurs games on TNT/WTBS. They will probably offer him half of Florida to play there. ------------------ You can't have everything.Where would you put it?
I'm seriously under the impression that the trade exception fits in here somewhere. Orlando can get to $14M (alot) under the cap w/ little or no effort. To get to $18M (more), it's going to hurt them. They'll lose the aura of 'the chosen one' as well as insulting players amongst the NBA if they renounce the players that killed themselves this season. What has happened there this season is nothing less than magical. (oops, that was a gross pun) We have a $4.5M exception. The Magic need that room. Can we buy a player from them? Orlando wants Duncan (a.k.a. 'boring boy'; currently 'the wimp'). They also want Grant Hill. Both of these players can walk from their teams as of 08/01, and forever shape professional basketball. By getting the cap space, Orlando's argument will be rather convincing... $9M per player... and your raises are less than what your current teams can grant. Boo Hoo. Wanna dominate the east? ------------------
[starting a chant of Michael Doleac for the crowd] Anyway, where is Popeye, he's probably watching us all and laughing, hehe. I'm anti-Cato trade pretty much. Now, tell me Shaq, Zo or Duncan is coming to Houston, and I'm a changed man. But he's our future center, like it or not. I'd also trade Cato if we acquired a solid young center, like Olowokandi. On the subject of 3 way trades are we, hmm.... Houston: #3, Michael Doleac, Bryant Reeves Vancouver: Cato, Matt Harpring or Pat Garrity (ok, maybe I lied, but Doleac and Reeves counts, right?) Orlando: #9, Kenny Thomas, Felipe Lopez How does that sound? Orlando fulfills pick obligation to Houston also in this deal. This might not be bad, and maybe we could also salvage a future Vancouver 1st rounder out of the deal, for taking on Reeves (who's contract life is shorter, but fatter than Cato's), or better yet "future considerations". "future considerations"-Shareef Abdur-Rahim for Walt Williams etc. type of package ------------------ Rockets fans wanted at hoopsboards.com Draft Chat, NBA Chat, Team Chat, and more!
I'm not sure why so many people here are quick to trade away Kenny Thomas. He is an asset of the bench will become a Kevin Willis type player. He can start and give you quality minutes when injuries occur. I think along with Mobley, Anderson, and Francis, KT should not be traded because together they are a hell of a nucleus for years to come.
heypartner, I waa in a hurry earlier. KT + owed pick + some variation of swapped picks should be close to fair exchange. With the draft order still undetermined, these talks can best be termed exploratory. If Cato goes, Houston has to end up with a serviceable center and Dream is still highly questionable. If Reeves comes to Houston, Houston has to get plenty of extra juice to make this deal fly. Is Reeves + #3 > Cato + #9 ? Why would they (Orlando) want to spend $$$$ on Cato when they can maybe get Duncan? I was under the impression that trades of this type wouldn't actually be fully complete until August 1. Wasn't that the case in the Toronto - Indiana, GS - Atlanta deals involving draft picks and veteran players? If that is so, wouldn't Cato be counted at the higher price of his new contract instead of his old contract? Free agents such as Duncan, Hill etc can't be signed until August, so wouldn't Cato be soaking up caproom? Will Duncan sign with a team on August 2 or Sept 30? I looked in the Coon FAQ and didn't really find the answer I was looking for in regards to trade execution. Mango ------------------ The Serious Police are watching Donate Blood
Wonderful! Now who do we get to score points, other than Steve? We have enough athletic non-shooters already! ------------------ "Who Wants To Be A Rocket?" - and probably a millionaire as well. The off-season will be interesting!
Why on earth would the rockets want Bryant Reeves???? Please do not associate this club ever again with such a lame, slow, overweight, over paid, underperforming, injury prone, unproductive, ugly, waste of space, redneck, marshmallow man, excuse for a basketball player. ------------------
This is GREAT! Everyone is contributing. I don't profess to have the answers, and await Popeye to sweep in with more info. I've made my points. And everyone has valid returns. I am somewhat confused about measuring the value to Orlando to dump future obligations, like Popeye eluded to and Mango stresses. Popeye did indeed say Orlando probably wants something. I'm just trying to keep it simple till further news. Fact is: How much does dumping obligations weigh against doing this trade with the #5-8th picks. Put yourself on a BBS for the teams with a #5-8 picks and think about what you'd do for that #4 or #3. One other point I what to slam on the table of thought is: If Popeye nails this trade, I doubt it will be the last trade. Meaning don't think of this as losing a center like Cato and having to get one back in the trade; we could have other things up our sleeve with that #4, others the Duncan talkers are apparently alluding to. thx again Popeye!! Only our best bait can catch the big fish! CATO CATO CATO! He is 7 feet tall!
Oh...for Mango only. Just for you, I offered the pure speculation (without Popeye's OK) of the Reeves deal. Note how Orlando takes on ZERO extra dollars...actually they go down in salary cap equal to the difference in a #3 and a #4. Mango... Let me know if you find out about trade timelines and salary valuation in regards to the CBA. There really isn't anything in there about that. Maybe we should compile a list of question, and I'll write LC. The Aug 1st thing I remember as being when all new valuations occur, including salaries. I know nothing about delayed salaries. You could very well be correct. What should we ask LC? [This message has been edited by heypartner (edited May 03, 2000).]
heypartner and aelliott, Can you tell me what FAQ # at the Coon site covers the timing of trade execution for the draft and so forth? Mango ------------------ The Serious Police are watching Donate Blood
