Ok this can be endless but here's a summary: First off, instigating war is forbidden in Islam. Secondly, there must be a unanimously agreed act of aggression against the Ummah from another side. The word Ummah would require pages of explanation, but in short, it is all Muslims under one governing body and their property. Thirdly, yes ofcourse the Prophet PBUH killed people. He was the leader of the Ummah. Also, the Prophet PBUH did not convert one single person by the sword. He was not allowed to do so. Finally, no Muslim leader is allowed to reject a fair peace treaty. Fair means that if anything was taken, it is given back. To further understand, you have to understand that under Islamic law, ONLY once someone declares war (action or intent) ON you, you have to offer them 3 options BEFORE battling: 1) Convert and become citizens of the Ummah and follow the Constitution. 2) Surrender and agree a treaty. 3) Fight. If you lose, you are "colonized". You will return all you have taken, pay blood money resulting from deaths in battle and be under strict millitary supervision. So to answer your question, if someone attacked him and they chose battle, then yes.
What the Jewish leaders of the day considered to be God’s Law was different than what Jesus said God’s Law was. Jesus said they were wrong and that they were misinterpreting and didn’t really understand the Law, and that they had other motives. Mark 3 1Another time he went into the synagogue, and a man with a shriveled hand was there. 2Some of them were looking for a reason to accuse Jesus, so they watched him closely to see if he would heal him on the Sabbath. 3Jesus said to the man with the shriveled hand, "Stand up in front of everyone." 4Then Jesus asked them, "Which is lawful on the Sabbath: to do good or to do evil, to save life or to kill?" But they remained silent. 5He looked around at them in anger and, deeply distressed at their stubborn hearts, said to the man, "Stretch out your hand." He stretched it out, and his hand was completely restored. 6Then the Pharisees went out and began to plot with the Herodians how they might kill Jesus. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=mark 3 ;&version=31; They viewed healing on a Sabbath as working on the Sabbath, which was against Jewish Law. I believe so. I haven’t looked into this myself but my understanding is that they are. I believe so. Again, I haven’t looked into this myself but my understanding is that they are. I could probably do a bit of research and give you a better answer to both of these questions if I knew where you were going with them. It shouldn’t be. I did a cut and paste from the page I linked to. Which one are you referring to?
Grizzled, I've written the response to your comment but am conscious that not everyone may be comfortable with discussing such a topic. I try to preface everything I say with "from a Muslim perspective" or "from a Christian perspective" or "In my opinion" etc.. However, it is compeletely understandeable to me if someone else would get upset by our discussion. Would appreciate your take on whether it would be better to take this discussion offline? I know a few people have mentioned that they are aprpeciating the discussion. I would really appreciate if the Admins could give me their take on it. I'll wait for thoughts on this before deciding whether to continue or not. I must say, I'm thoroughly enjoying this discussion and have learned a lot from it and at the same time am fulyl aware that it may not be everyone's "cup of tea". Let me know.
Well, I would say that this is a debate and discussion forum and, imo, as long as someone is stating a legitimate opinion, or stating an actual belief held by a group of people, then whatever it is is fair game. This thread isn’t about insults or name calling. It’s a real discussion about actual beliefs. Maybe we could emphasise that we are just two people talking about our understandings and perceptions of our religions. Humans are fallible and, as you mentioned above, only God knows the exact truth, but I think discussions like this can be very useful in raising the understanding level, and I do believe that there is an enormous amount of misunderstanding today between the Muslim world and the Christian world today. If you’re still concerned I would be fine with you sending it to me directly, and I would be happy to read it and let you know if I thought anything in it might not be appropriate to post.
I finally got back to the much earlier post I was finishing off. It’s out of place here, but if you go back a couple of pages you’ll see where it fits. Sorry for the delay. Well, note that it also means that those who disbelieve Jesus have gone astray, and this also brings us back to the importance of understanding what the Qur’an says about the Bible. Reading scripture can be a bit like putting together the pieces of a puzzle. All the different pieces have to fit together within the greater context of the book in question, and indeed for the people who believe in the God of Abraham there is the question of how the different books fit together. This is what was behind my exploration of the Qur’an. I have no doubts about the basic truth of Christianity, but what is Islam and where does it fit in? I had a number of good friends in school who were Muslims as well and that made me even more curious. I’ve learned a lot of very interesting things, but a roadblock I’ve run into is the difference between what the Qur’an appears to clearly say and the current practice of Islam. For me the issue you’ve raised in this section is an interesting one, but I think even in starting to address it we’re immediately going to run into one of these disconnects. I read 5:48 as talking about a prescribed law and an open way for each of the three groups, for example, (see also 5:69 and 2:62). That seems quite clear to me and I don’t see a convincing alternative explanation. (Note however that the 3 may really one when you get down to the basics). So how does one understand 5:48, 5:69 and 2:62 in the context of the passages you’ve quoted above? I think the key is to focus on belief, not disbelief. Don’t be diverted down the path of disbelief and rivalry. “The goal of you all is to Allah.” Seek God. That is what we all are supposed to do. What should a Christian believe about Islam, and what should Muslims believe about Christianity? I think if someone wants to explore and know more then that’s fine, but it is very important to be honest and fair in the exploration, and failure to do that may constitute denial. I think very few are likely to have the interest and the ability to do this, however, and for them I think there is a state of neither belief nor disbelief about the other religions. There is a lot we don’t know and will not know, at least in this lifetime, about God’s plan for us, and not knowing exactly how these other two faiths fit will be one of those things for many people at the very least. For those of us who want to and are able to pursue a greater understanding of the other faiths I think it is a worthwhile pursuit, and I’m very glad that you’re sharing your thoughts and beliefs on the subject. John 8 54Jesus replied, "If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. 55Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and keep his word. 56Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad." 57"You are not yet fifty years old," the Jews said to him, "and you have seen Abraham!" 58"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" 59At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john 8;&version=31; Jesus has always existed according to the Bible. The “I am” signifies no beginning and no end. It is certainly true that God does not need a human vehicle, but he doesn't need to use books or messengers either. He could have just imprinted perfect knowledge of his will on our minds, but this is not what he chose to do. He has chosen to communicate with us in certain ways, and it’s not for us to put limits on what he can do. We can only judge by what God has said he will do, because he doesn’t contradict himself. Remember that, according to the Bible, Jesus’ death on the cross was a sacrifice of atonement for the sins of man. Remember also that God has asked Abraham to sacrifice his son. This foreshadowed the sacrifice God would make with Jesus for the sins of mankind. God could surely have chosen many different ways to communicate with us, but this is what he has chosen. We can test for consistency within his word to check our own understanding, but we can’t question the validity of his choices. He chooses what he chooses. I don’t think it says this, and if you believe it does then please show me the verses. I don’t know of anywhere where it says God will protect the Qur’an but won’t protect the books of the People of the Book, or anywhere where it says that the books of the People of the Book have been corrupted. Again, I think this is a belief that comes from outside the Qur’an. I don’t think it says that the previous books become unnecessary either, and in fact in the section in 5 that we’ve just discussed, as well as the one in 2, I believe it tell Jews and Christians to judge by their own books. If you believe that these beliefs come from the Qur’an, and are not part of the current practice of Islam that has been derived from outside of the Qur’an, then please show me the verses from the Qur’an that support them. I think you’re misinterpreting that quote. I think this means that without God’s guidance such books could not be produced. The Qur’an wasn’t written by a messenger either, of course, because he couldn’t write, and yet Muslims believe that God was able to watch over the process and ensure that his word was copied out correctly and protected from corruption after his death. There is nothing I know of in the Qur’an that says that one of God’s books can’t have been produced the way the Bible was produced, and once again remember that the Bible had existed for hundreds of years by the time the Qur’an was written, and the Qur’an only confirms its validity. I do understand that what you say is a very widespread belief in current Islamic practice, but I can find no basis for it in the Qur’an. Once again, the Qur’an says nothing about the Bible being distorted. If that was the reason for the Qur’an then surely this would have been mentioned in the Qur’an. Instead the Qur’an confirms the validity of the Bible both directly and indirectly in many places, a number of which I have already quoted in this thread. This is one of the key points of disconnect, possibly the most important point, that I referred to above. I suspect that through the centuries of conflict between Christian and Muslim states, starting perhaps around 1000 CE, Muslim scholars started interpreting the sections of the Qur’an that relate to Jews and Christians in such a way that made it easier to demonize them. In other words I think they were influenced by politics and power, and they established a set of widely held beliefs about Jews and Christians that still exist today but that are not, and never were, supported by the Qur’an. This kind of thing happens in the Christian world too, btw. This is not the best comparison but the first one that springs to mind in the belief in young earth creationism. Some centuries ago scholars decided to figure out how old the earth was, so they dug into the Bible and tried to trace back events and add up all the time intervals. Neither the age of the earth nor the exact timing of these intervals is ever explicitly stated in the Bible, however, so many assumptions had to be made. The scholars of the day made what seemed like reasonable assumptions at the time and came up with a date, and since there was no evidence to contradict their assumptions what they said was taken to be true, and it became an ingrained part of church tradition. It wasn’t until much later that scientists began dating fossils and rocks to times well before the supposed age of the earth, and this challenged these long standing beliefs about the age of the earth. At that point some Christians went back and had a second look at those beliefs and discovered that they were actually based on a lot of assumptions. They saw that the evidence the scientists were turning up didn’t actually contradict the Bible, but instead it contradicted the assumptions the scholars had made. For many people, however, it has been very difficult to give up on a centuries old traditional belief. Even to this day a number of these people still believe that the Bible says that the earth is only a few thousand years old. It doesn’t. It was scholars from centuries ago that said the Bible said that. It is they who were wrong, not the Bible, but some old traditions often die hard. In the case of Islam this belief that the books of the Christians and Jews have been corrupted is intricately woven into the political disputes and wars between Muslims, Jews and Christians for centuries, and I’m sure that it is much, much, harder to challenge than young earth creationism. Maybe a rough parallel in the Christian world would be the kinds things that led to the Protestant Reformation?
I'll just keep posting I guess since no one seems to have a problem with it.. I haven't read your last post, I'll read it and reply later.. Here's the point I'm trying to get at (didn't meant to keep you in the dark): Based on what you're telling me, Jesus PBUH said that the Jews were misapplying the Law. At that point in time there was no written Christian Bible, so unless otherwise stated, we can not know if Jesus PBUH was specifically telling them that their text is altered (wording). What we do know for sure is that Jesus PBUH knows the Law and Jesus PBUH sais that Jewish practices were not compliant with that law. Now, if the Torah/Tanakh are identical (in original scriptures, not translations) to what's in the Old Testament, that indicates to you as a Christian that there was no difference in wording. This much is logical from your perspective and I understand that. Now switch cameras to my perspective. The Quraan tells us that the Jews reworded that law. I have confirmed with several knowledgeable native Arab speakers without disclosing to them why I am asking. I guarantee beyond a shadow of a doubt that the word used in the Quraan for "reworded" is HARRAFOOHA. Aside from what I mentioned earlier, the following example was made to me to clarify: If someone said in Arabic: "I read the contract, but they (insert HARRAFOOHA) since then to allow them more profit." It can not mean anything other than rewording or restructuring of sentences or adding or removing words. There are several ways to say that they misinterpreted or took another position on the meaning. This is absolutely not one of them. So, according to my belief, it is reworded; and, according to your belief, it is identical across Judaism and Christianity. This leads me to believe that it was reworded before Jesus PBUH was involved and since his message (according to what I've understood here) was to fix the misinterpretation, the Law was copied and pasted as is from Jewish scriptures. I assume we are completely unaware of Jesus PBUH physically inspecting the text or claiming it was textually corrupted or putting any emphasis whatsoever on textual errors. Furthermore, from the Muslim perspective and in this context, the contradictions between the Old and New Testament raises an eyebrow. The one I am most familiar with is "cheek for cheek" vs "turn the cheek". This leads me to two possibilities: - the contradiction indicates more than one author who are in disagreement; or - if these contradicting statements are all attributed to Jesus PBUH, there has been a mistake in the text somewhere. Regardless of which one of those is true, the Christian Bible (circulated as one book or several texts) is not valid to a Muslim. Consequently, for a Muslim, the definition of Messiah, Christ, Christianity, Christian or any similar reference can not be derived from that book. From a MUSLIM perspective, it is overridden by the Quran, possibly the Hadith and does not fall under what is reffered to in the Quraan as the Injeel of Jesus PBUH (translates to Gospels) or the Taurat of Moses PBUH (Torah/Old Testament) which are both ultimately divine books.
I think that’s a fair way to put it. Here’s another well known passage as an example of Jesus speaking to some specific issues. Jesus wasn’t saying that they’d changed the words. He was saying that they were twisting them and changing the emphasis. Jesus pointed this out and shifted in emphasis from the external to the internal. “You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.” Jesus established a new covenant, but for the purposes of this discussion it’s important to note that I think you can argue he was making explicit something that had already existed. He was a sacrifice of atonement to cover man’s sins, but I think the power of that sacrifice was timeless. Romans 4 1What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? 2If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." Romans 3 21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus. Hosea 6 5 Therefore I cut you in pieces with my prophets, I killed you with the words of my mouth; my judgments flashed like lightning upon you. 6 For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=35&chapter=6&version=31 It’s also very interesting to note that even Muslims believe that Jesus will come back and play a key role during the end times. Well, the Bible speaks to this, and this brings us back to the issue of what the Qur’an actually says about the Bible. (There are other ways that Christians, Jews and other non-Muslims deal with the question of the validity of the Bible, of course, but from a Muslim point of view I think it’s probably most interesting to have a very close look at what the Qur’an says about it). This becomes a point to explore further, because if we use this as a starting point we then have to reconcile it with all the other passages that fairly clearly seem to confirm the validity of the Bible, a number of which I’ve already listed. In which verses does that word appear, btw? I don’t speak Arabic but there are some online commentaries in English that might shed some further light on this. This is also quite a common exercise when reading the Bible as well, btw. It’s not uncommon to find something that on first reading appears to conflict with something somewhere else in the Bible, but for me a closer reading always reveals deeper levels of meaning and it almost always resolves the conflict. (There are one or two issues I’m still working, however, and there are doubtless more that haven’t surfaced for me yet.) With respect to this issue in the Qur’an, however, there are a lot of quotes to work with so it should be fairly readily resolvable, but you do have to deal with all the related quotes. A person can’t just pick and choose the ones that appear to say what they want them to say, because that would be taking things out of context and twisting the words and changing meanings to suit one’s own purposes. This is a little problematic, though. If it was reworded before Jesus then why isn’t the Qur’an full of warnings about this? If this had happened it would have been an extremely serious issue. The Qur’an does make reference to other issues with the Christian Church of the day, like the Trinity (a word that does not appear in the Bible, btw) and some of the other heresies we’ve discussed. With respect to the Bible itself, however, there seems to be only maybe one or two debatable references to corruption vs. a large number of others that seem to quite clearly say or imply that the Bible is God’s word. I do understand that it is a strongly held belief in the current practice of Islam that the Bible has been corrupted, but can you see how an independent reader would have trouble coming to that conclusion based on all of what the Qur’an says? Well, I think this is actually quite close to a Muslim belief. I can’t find the passage right now but here’s one that refers to Jews, and I believe the Muslim belief is quite similar, but please correct me if I’m wrong. 005.045 YUSUFALI: We ordained therein for them: "Life for life, eye for eye, nose or nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal." But if any one remits the retaliation by way of charity, it is an act of atonement for himself. And if any fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (No better than) wrong-doers. PICKTHAL: And We prescribed for them therein: The life for the life, and the eye for the eye, and the nose for the nose, and the ear for the ear, and the tooth for the tooth, and for wounds retaliation. But whoso forgoeth it (in the way of charity) it shall be expiation for him. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are wrong-doers. SHAKIR: And We prescribed to them in it that life is for life, and eye for eye, and nose for nose, and ear for ear, and tooth for tooth, and (that there is) reprisal in wounds; but he who foregoes it, it shall be an expiation for him; and whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the unjust. Jesus didn’t rewrite the Law. His example showed us the best way to live. He is the Word become flesh, as John 1 says. I do understand that this is the current practice of Islam, but hopefully you can see what my problem is with the disconnect between the book and the practice. You are very much like my Muslim friends, btw. I find you very friendly, respectful, intelligent, and open to discussing issues, but this particular issue seems to throw them off balance a bit. It seems to be somewhat confusing and troubling for them, and ultimately our discussion never gets past this point. I’m sure that it hadn’t even occurred to my friends that the Qur’an may not actually say this, and I think they were troubled by the thought of even looking into the question. It’s my understanding that most of their belief system was taught to them by teachers and is not something that they’ve understood from their own reading of the Qur’an, and I believe this is how these paths divide. This is how the same thing happens in the Christian world as well, btw. I’m happy to leave this discussion here if you want, but I would encourage you, if you’re interested, to look closer into the passages that you believe suggest that the Bible has been corrupted, and to look at them in context with all the other references to the Christian Book, remembering that that book had was established and widely known by about 400CE, over 200 years before the Qur’an was written. I know from what you’ve said about the Hadiths that you know that traditional beliefs can lead people to believe things that aren’t in Gods Books, and I ask you to consider that this might be one of those cases. Thanks for the good discussion.
