I love this post. I'm not sure if you're purposely being difficult, but please point out where I said Battier was the worst offensive player in the NBA. I don't believe I did, as that would be exaggerating. Of course you can find some guys at the ends of NBA benches who are even worse offensively than Battier. Joey Dorsey comes to mind. The point of my (not so) hypothetical question was this: If you're the worst player among a group of players at one half of the game, and you aren't the best at the other half, you're pretty much, by definition, below average overall compared to the rest of that group. Do me a favor and check out the top 143 players in minutes played last season, all of whom averaged more points than Battier (link here). Can you really say any one of those players is worse on offense than Battier? Please, by all means, feel free to go over every name on the list. But just to save you some time, I'll let you know there's only 4 guys you could even begin to make a case for: Tyson Chandler, Brendan Haywood, Fred Jones, Anderson Varejao. That's it. And yes, I did take into account how amazing Battier is at "running the offense" (a Stockton-esque 2.3 assists/game), "spacing the floor" (he'd space it even better from the bench...), "shot selection" (41 FG%), and "moving the ball" (again, Stockton-esque assists). So among the 143 NBA players who got the most playing time, the All-Worst Offensive First Team would look something like: Fred Jones Shane Battier Anderson Varejao Tyson Chandler Brendan Haywood Tell you what, if Battier manages to make the All-Defensive First Team next year, then I'll concede that he's reached the level of mediocrity as an NBA starter (or player who get starters' minutes). Until then, he's below average. But hey, it could be worse, right? We could owe him 7 million each of the next two seasons, after he just had arguably the worst season of his career each of the last two seasons... What's that? Oh. Well, that sucks, but it's not like there are any big free agents we'd want to go after next summer anyway...
I think you are making a mistake to equate 'points-per-game' with 'good offensive player.' From a very quick look at your list, I could make a case that the following players ARE "worse" on offense than Battier simply because they get their points at the expense of the team OR make poor decisions OR contribute nothing on offense other than shooting: Ron Artest Zach Randolph Jamal Crawford Al Harrington Peja Stojakovic Rafer Alston Marquis Daniels Corey Maggette Marcus Camby Sebastian Telfair
Exactly. I am not sure all of the names are guilty of contributing negatively to their teams, but using a possession poorly (i.e. turning the ball over, taking a poor shot when a better one is available) hurts your team more than not taking a shot (unless we are talking about the "clock running down" situation, but we have no evidence that Battier would decline to launch even when there are 2 seconds on the clock). Remember when Mike James was on the team last year? He kept on jacking up 3s (and missing) or driving aimlesses into the crowd and gettin swatted. Now that's being a negative on the offensive end. Our pal Ron Artest did some of it last year, too... but at least he hits a good % of his weird shots, so he wasn't nearly as negative as James. Battier has, in fact, helped the Rockets offensively simply by not being a "ball stopper" and make smart decisions rather than wasting precious seconds off the shot clock. The team was far worse offensively when McGrady and Artest took turns wasting the shot clock instead of moving the ball and getting a higher efficiency shot from Yao or Scola.
Certainly making a guy work on the defensive end has an effect, but does that outweight Battier's defense? Denver had a pair of offensive wings in Smith and Anthony, was Kobe Bryant less effective in that series as a result? To me, it seems like a matter of degree... you gotta be talking about someone damn good offensively for the "making Kobe work on D" to match the difference between Battier's D and an average NBA defender. Boston didn't win the serie just because Ray Allen made Kobe work. They had a good backline of defenders in Garnett and Perkins, they also had James Posey to call on.
I love this post more. I am not Carl Herrera so I can only speak for myself, and I did find your posts very interesting. Your gross misuse of statistics in particular. Your definition fails. You equate offense to points scored which is false. You give no definition to defense, and assume Battier is not elite based on.. well you provide no argument here. And then you add up your misconstrued definition of offense and undefined definition of defense and equate that to basketball in its entirety. Which in itself is false yet again, because you leave out factors that contribute to winning, such as rebounding, effort, leadership etc., that are not clearly identified as offensive or defensive traits. Therefore your (false + unknown = truthiness) equation is Fail. Especially when you leave out a bunch of other contributing variables. Do me a favor and learn what being good at offense means. Hint: scoring points isn't it. Ok, to save you the time I'll just educate you. If you want to talk about offense, the only offense that matters is the team's offense. If a player is scoring a bunch of points, but in turn takes away better scoring opportunities from his teammates, he is NOT a good offensive player. He may score more points per game, however the overall team offense suffers- which is the only thing that matters. Now you equate "running the offense" and "moving the ball" to assists. Which again is false. First, a pass to a pass that leads to an assist does not receive credit. Second, just forget about "assists" all together. Running the offense and moving the ball have nothing to do with assists. What they mean is fitting in as a cog in a well oiled machine. The Rockets score better as a team with Battier on the floor. Which is all you need to define offensive contribution. Wafer may score more points, however instead of a cog, he is a loose nut. His 44% and 39% sure seems nice compared to Battier's 41%. However what you fail to see is when Battier passes up his shot and that possession leads to a 50%+ shot for someone else. Meanwhile, Wafer will take his 44% shot each and every time, even if that possession could end up being a 100% shot for someone else. In the end, having Battier in there is more efficient for your offense, 41% and all. Many people refuse to look at statistics all together, because they believe statistics lie. This isn't true. Numbers never lie. It is the people who don't know how to use statistics that give it this bad perception. Stop looking at points. Stop looking at assists. Stop looking at FG%s. Start looking at contributions to Wins. Believe it or not, there are statistics out there that measure that as well. And this may be to your surprise, but you will find Shane Battier pretty high up on those lists.
Many people on this board forget that Battier has been a winner everywhere he has been, even in Memphis, I know. Battier is a true team player and exemplifies the class that every other NBA player needs to exhibit. Wafer is just another athletic kid who can shoot decent. He is streaky and inconsistent. these players are a dime a dozen. And I know a good team needs both of these types of players. Battier is so much better than Wafer, that this question is a little bit shocking in my opinion.. Battier all the way
I think it goes without saying that every championship level team needs a player like a Battier. The problem? You can only carry so many "glue guys" on one team. Players like Battier, Ariza (pre-Rockets version), Lowry, Hayes, etc. have all been solid rotational players but don't exactly excel at creating their own offense. Sometimes you need a player like Wafer in the mix too. A player that you can put the ball in their hands and make something happen -- for better or worse. I mean, this is a team that's dealt with stagnant offenses and plenty of crippling scoring droughts in the past. Take Yao and T-Mac out of the mix, that problem only figures to get worse. I have confidence in Morey but I am very concerned as to where the offense is going to come from. Wafer would definitely help in that regard while Shane could continue to do what he does best. Sounds like a win-win scenario to me.
Yep, you need a player like shane, but a player like shane doesnt cost a high lotto pick nor do they play 35 mins a night. On a good team, he's a 20 minute bench player. Thats not to say he isnt important, but is he any important than mario is a rockets uni? Posey in a celts jersey?
Perhaps you say is correct,but these two are what we need,I do not want to be trading battier but I also really like wafer ,Really really hope they stay in the rocket!!!
maybe I shouldve said contender CXbby. Paycheck vs production vs compensation. The more you pay, the more you expect. Its not a question of whether Battier can contribute on a championship level squad, its more of does his production vs his salary warrant his place. The glue guys that every tea has are 3-4m guys traded for 2nd rd picks or guys as cap filler. Bowen,Posey,ariza,elie, and so on. Its kinda like the comedian jokes about the side of the menu the female orders off of. She orders the the filet mignon and lobster tails with a glass of chardonay, the expectations at the end of the night are different than if she orders the chicken fried chicken with mashed potatoes and a root beer . The price tag went up and so does the expectations of production.
Rox need to resign Wafer simply to get even younger, and have a core of: Brooks, Lowry, Ariza, Landry, Wafer, Scola, Budinger
using this logic they are better of signing Jermaine Taylor for cheaper and he is younger. And Scola isnt young, he isnt old but I wouldnt classify him as young. The longer Wafer goes unsigned the greater the chances that the Rockets do not want him back unless its for the vet min, but even that would seem unlikely at this point.
Jermaine Taylor looked really really bad against summer league competition..... The SL is set up for guards and wings to dominate, and Taylor had a horrible time, shooting, and getting by his man. He jumped well, and passed ok, but if he plays even 1 minute during the regular season, it will mean a major transformation. He is probably NBDL bound..... Von is a lot better than Taylor at this point......if it came down to those two, it would be foolish to sign Taylor and not Von.....IMO. At least we know Von can get by NBA talent,....Taylor...is a huge question mark right now. DD
fo sho! none of them guys got paid more thand 3 or 4 million and this proves battiay is way overpaid. it don't matter that im changing the subject because clearly battiay played more than 20 mpg off the bench for some teams that won some games unlike my original argument. now that I think of it so did bowen posey ariza and elie so that's why Im changing the subject to talk about salaries and comedians. now that I think of of it Posey is getting paid more than 3 or 4 million and ariza just signed his mle deal like last month so i better think of something to change the subject to when somebody points out.
You don't believe adding a healthy Tracy McGrady, a healthy Yao Ming, and a a very good backup C in Dikembe Mutombo to last year's playoff team would have made them a contender? I do. And Shane would have been more than a 20 mpg player on it as well.
