1) True, but again, this is mostly a consequence of the demographic, not so much what the school of though preaches. 2) The Quraan, in a sense, is to be taken literally. With the Quraan, the problem is context rather than interpretation. So if there is a line saying "kill the asians!!" people tend to forget that this may be a command to the Prophet PBUH to kill a group of people who raped children and burned them alive (just making up an example). For each Quraanic verse there are pages and pages of commentary and explanations to ensure that everythign is understood. Unfortunately, ppl ignore that in favor of how they themselves interpret it. 3) In Islam, conservative/liberal tags are placed solely on the method of interpreting Hadith. We've discussed how ultra conservatives can twist things if they choose. A liberal can do it by, for example, extending the meaning of "Kaafir"/nonbeliever to include Christians/Jews of today. A conservative would not do this. Not sure if that clarifies? 4) Agreed. Those things definitely exacerbate the already-poor situation.
thats what their religion says. it says anyone who follows the quaran literally word for word, should be considered an infidel
At the end of the day, it comes down to low literacy rates in regions dominated by muslims. Extremists and fundamentalists thrive in poor economic conditions where basic resources are not available to common people, which makes brainwashing and "personal interpretations" very easy. If the muslim world cares at all about it's future, it will start pumping money into giving it's kids a WESTERN education. You have to beat America at it's own game, which is what Japan, China and India are close to doing. Being bitter and living with hatred does nothing when you're in such a deep hole. College grads from places like Syria and Jordan are extremely limited in what the can achieve because of corrupt dictatorships and a passport that makes them an afterthought to the world. Adversity has given these people exceptional creativity and flair in what they do but it constantly goes to waste. I've learnt more from 10 minutes of conversation with these people than spending an entire week with the spoilt, but bland American. And make no mistake about it, outside of Israel and Australia, no one looks up to or exotic-ises America. The quality of life is envied but not the nation or people. Keep educating the youth and giving them discipline and both these issues will weaken over time. Forget about hate.
Literacy rates are a problem but can't be the only problem. Let's not forget that Osama Bin Laden is Western educated, was always filthy rich and even lived abroad at one point. Those who were allegedly involved in 9/11 were from well-respected, well-off families and many of them western educated. The last thing anyone needs is a Western education honestly. With all due respect, that kind of education is worthless to the Middle East and the Muslim world unless the goal is to just have people nod like sheep. The solution is modernization from within. I agree that being bitter and living with hatred is horrible. But I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion that a western education would solve those problems as it doesn't seem to have solved the problem for anyone else. Beating America at its game is a trivial goal IMO. Also, pumping money into education is good, except that Islam is not a nation, it doesn't have money and it doesn't have a government or a leader. It is the Muslims of a country who have to start demanding that their own country improves everything, and this can only be achieved when non-puppet democracies start to form. There's a story (paraphrased here) about the Prophet PBUH that after setting up his empire as a democracy with terriffic organs of government (cabinet, parliament, independent courts, treasury, etc) that he predicted that sooner rather than later, the greed inherent in some people will take all Muslims back to the Pre-Islamic Jahiliya (ignorance) of dictatorships. An overwhelming number of Muslims do not know that democracy is the way of the Prophet PBUH and not a kingdom or a dictatorship or whatever. They seem to be more concerned about how long their beards should be (which is important, but again, big picture).
I'm trying to simplify things as much as I can. Despair is the worst feeling for a person to have, there has to be hope. Without opportunity, there can be no hope. Without education, one cannot take advantage of opportunities. Right now we have a bunch of kids running around in barren wasteleands with no outlook and no ability to think for themselves as a result. They were born to be puppets to an agenda. We can talk about how Islam is not well suited to globalization, how the oppression aspects have made it resistant to change and resulted in an inability to deal with modern times, but let's move away from religion! Islam is just not well equipped to deal with prosperity, they have shown they cannot adapt to modern times. Modernization from within has resulted in corruption where the top 5% get all the benefits and the gap between them and the rest only widens. The muslim world (nations of the middle East), need to emphasize education over religion, or atleast allow them to co-exist as separate entities. It builds a foundation for hope and improvement and lack of it is the root cause of all issues in developing nations. As you noted, money and political instability would be the biggest issues in trying to implement this change. But the way I see it, they don't really have a choice as the Middle East has been globalization's biggest b**** and does not have a bright outlook. As someone who grew up in international schools and saw what local schools had to offer (in Asia), you are severely underestimating the impact of a Western education. India would be no where today if the British never colonized them. The British brought in infrastructure (rail system, roads) and a western education system that has been vital to India's growth over the past 60 years. The muslim world can't keep up with it's sociopathic tendencies, it must embrace what the outside world has to offer and try to assimilate themselves to it.
History repeating itself. This thread stinks of the White Man's Burden. Ah, global imperialism at is best. Let's dig these non-Westerners out of their stink, sandholes!
Ronny, I respect your opinion, but I must disagree with you on several things and quite frankly I don't think we would reach a common ground with them. But I still want to indicate where we differ so that you can see where I'm coming from, even if you may not agree. 1) The last thing Muslim youth need is to be swung like a pendulum from despair to materialism via hardcore capitalism. Even in its most ethical form, capitalism would lead the mentally vulnerable and traumatized Muslim youth astray. I have seen with my own eyes how Muslim youth in Turkey and the United Arab Emirates are rocking their ipods, flashy cars, and creating classes among themselves and have completely forgotten where they came from and how much their brothers SO nearby are suffering. I just feel like what you have proposed has been attempted and has failed all things considered (not just GDP). 2) I totally disagree with your claim that Islam is not compatible with the rest of the world, does not allow us to assimilate and is a barrier to our integration with globalization. In fact I find it quite offensive, but I'll just respectfully assume that you are lacking in your understanding of Islam. 3) Emphasizing education (or anything) OVER religion is shirk (the biggest and basically the only unforgivable sin in Islam). In any case there is no need to do it as the first words spoken to Muhammad PBUH as part of the Quraan were COMMANDS from Allah for him to read and write. This is just in case you thought that higher education has no place in Islam. You are required to be able to assimilate, provide for your family, be useful to your community and seek education as well. It's all there. 4) Just to drive this one home: Islam is not a country. Not all Islamic countries are dictatorships. There are poorly run governments going by the name of Islam, absolutely, but that does not constitute an Islamic Ummah and its leaders cannot be considered leaders in Islam. It is in fact a step AWAY from Islam that has put these countries in the "5% control everything" conundrum. If true Islamic Sharia was applied, they would all have to be democracies. Overall, I just want to say that I understand why you think what you think. Unfortunately, not all problems can be resolved in the way that they have been before. Does it make sense to you if Hindus were the most powerful people in the world one day and they told Christians "Listen, you need to put education above Jesus right now in order for there not to be awkwardness between you and the rest of the world". New problems require new solutions. Islam is probably the fastest growing religion in the world despite it having the second largest number of followers. You can patch things up as you please, but realistically, the solution is for more people to understand Muslims and for Muslims to come out of this pre-Islamic stage of ignorance they have reverted to.
I see this in the Jumeirah beach type areas of Dubai and Abu Dhabi. But these are affluent places, so why wouldn't you expect the kids to do the same things affluent western kids do? You cannot indebt them for the suffering of other kids their age because they are linked together through religion... you have to look at what is trickling down from the top. It's clear you have a much more thorough understanding of Islam than me, but is that really relevant in this situation? How many kids in the Middle East will have the same opportunities as you, be educated in the same manner in you, and be able to see things the way you see them? Why was there a step away from the Islamic sharia? You give off the impression that Islamic nations were thriving before globalization, which clearly wasn't the case. What would you attribute as the trigger to the buildup of issues that has left them where they are today? It wouldn't be ideal to place education above Allah, but doing things in the name of Allah instead of logic or science haven't worked out so far for low income demographics. Could it be your bias prevents you from picturing things without being under the umbrellah of Allah? Adaptation and modernization is about making changes, even if they seem blasphemous at the time. I just want to add you've clearly made your point, so you don't have to respond if you don't have time. But IMO I don't think muslims looking internally will solve the bitterness or struggles they've had in lacking the ability to adapt and modernize. Islam is a very powerful religion that has given a lot of people direction but it simply doesn't work in areas stricken by poverty, conflict and turmoil, which is where it happens to be most prevalent in. Why is that?
Why does the average american Christian hate most muslims that they don't know? And why do they hate Islam/muslims but love and support Jews but the Jews say that Jesus was a fraud and they supported his death by the Romans, but yet Islam and muslims agree that Jesus was born of a virgin, the Word of God, did miracles and was a Messiah? Just curious........
A Christian shouldn't be hating anyone.....as difficult as that is. But I'm guessing the short answer to your question is that Jews haven't, in recent history, banded together to blow crap up and declared war on everyone who isn't Jewish. I recognize not all Muslims are like that...and that the vast majority are not, and that it's completely unfair to lump in Muslims generally with the crap that's been done in their name....but if you're asking about perceptions, that's what it's born out of.
So you believe that Christians in America or elsewhere only started hating muslims since 911 or thereabouts? And to my knowledge, there are about 1 billion muslims on the earth....exactly how many do you believe are blowing up crap and declaring war on everyone who isn't muslim? I know you said that it's unfair to lump in Muslims generally, but at the same time you seem to be using it as a justification to the answer for Christians, while that type of generalization is not accepted as a reason why muslims should dislike the west....the reason for this whole thread I presume.
i'm not justifying hatred or bigotry. i'm not justifying those things at all. i would never attempt to. i know muslims...i've been to friday prayers at a mosque...i've represented them in court...i know that being a muslim does not equal being a terrorist, and would never say it's ok to say that. i think it's the explanation, though. and i think the way the US parades around under the guise of a Christian nation while starting pre-emptive wars based on, at best, half-truths is the explanation for the perception of a muslim person across the globe of a white, male, US-born, Christian who posts too much on Clutchfans. none of those perceptions are leading to anywhere good.
You know I always wondered what the actual number of religious people vs non religous people is in the USA. The love for Israel has more to do with it being a free society and westernized more than religion, I think. DD
1) Well, Jumeirah Beach is the home of expatrates so I'm not sure how that ties into here. Obviously not saying there aren't Muslims there, but it is definitely a poor sample for a bunch of Muslim people. Also, the mere fact that you believe in Allah and his Prophet PBUH indebts you to Muslims all over the world. Acually, you are indebted to all humanity as you are a steward of the Creator on this earth. Muslim kids are linked together through religion and in many cases even by lineage. There are descendants of the Prophet PBUH in Singapore and Saudi Arabia. Point being, in Islam, it IS your responsibility to take care of fellow Muslims, no ands, ifs or buts about it. (On a different note, my personal belief is that Muslim does not necessarily only mean what it does today, rather it includes a much larger group of people. But that is besides the point and too much to discuss here.) 2) Therefore the goal is not to eliminate Islam, it's to provide the right education for those people to be able to think for themselves a lot more nd listen to crooked extremist Islamists a lot less. 3) During Islam's reign, a huge percenteage of the world's inventors were Muslim. HUGE. I believe I've read something that says 16 out of the top 30, but I admittedly have no clue where I've read that. The step away from Islamic Sharia started with the emergence of Shia vs Sunni conflict, which led to the different sects stealing the power from each other and grasping the power so hard that it was taken away from the people. Dictatorship ensued whereby the leaders lived in a fantasy world and the people were living on scraps. That is where everything went wrong. Once oil was found, the centre of the Muslim world became covetted by imperialist countries and were succesfully enslaved. The people never had a chance. Now the majority of Islamic nations have followed suit thinking that a dictatorship is the way of Islam when it is FAR FROM the truth. The dictators were just happy to live in a fantasy land while the people were either suffering or shut up with oil money and the leaders go around showing off their position in TYPICAL TYPICAL pre-Islamic tribal fashion. They are doing everything that the Prophet PBUH got rid of and warned against. 4) You're insiniuating that advancing in logic or science IN the name of Allah is not an option. That is a false assumption. You are right, however, in that it is not being done. Adapting and modernizing at your whim is easy and IMO cowardly. Doing the right thing is not that easy - which means, doing them in a way that your CREATOR would be happy with. Unless you are advocating eliminating the religion altogether, there is no logical basis for someone to do things which are good for now but their creator would not want them to do. Anything done repeatedly will start to feel right after a while. How about a cocaine addict who ignores the blasphemous natures of his actions and then after a while it doesn't even occur to him anymore. There are people in this world who have endured pain as children so much that they start tolerating and even yearning for abuse in the home. This is how the human mind works. In short, if it requires putting God's will aside, it would be better to suffer because if you are a Muslim you believe that when all is said and done you will be rewarded handsomely for suffering (which you couldn't prevent while abiding by Allah's rules) when all is said and done. 5) I grew up in a secular nation and am certain have travelled and lived with far more people from all sides of the world than the average person (to say the least). I'm Euopean-educated, I was a guitarist for 10 years, I used to drink and smoke mar1juana, yet I'm Musim and I pray and fast and don't date. I visit the Middle East every year and am moving there soon hopefully. My closest friends are Turkish, American, Iranian, Emirati, Nigerian, Canadian and Malaysian. How biased can I be really? I've made a concentrated effort to experience everyone's culture and mindset and I'm proud that I haven't been chained to my culture and religion enough to keep me from knowing everyone's side. 6) No religion works in those areas. Palestinian and Lebanese Christians were throwing stones right next to their Muslim brothers. Hindus and Sikhs in India are still marrying off children that are not born yet. If you're specifically pointing to violence, then explain to me why there is so much violence even in non-Muslim African nations? The problem is poverty and oppression and it is magnified by the existence of poor governments. This kind of governance is forbidden in Islam. This kind of illiteracy is forbidden in Islam. This kind of hatred is forbidden in Islam. Building a skyscraper while someone is hungry for food is forbidden in Islam unless the money made from the skyscraper will end up feeding more people. Unfortunately, this kind of government serves a certain group of people very well in their goals, so it has become ridiculously difficult to change. But don't worry, it is changing, and in time it will dissapear without having to ignore that God has given us his rules on paper. Quite frankly I'm surprised that you advocate putting Islam aside in favor of fast-tracking improving standards of living for Muslims. Telling someone to ignore what they believe is their creator? How can you possibly advocate that? How can you possibly see that as a concrete solution? The answer to what you're saying is simple: If Islam is not bringing economic prosperity and illiteracy, who gives a damn. There's an eternity awaiting, the entrance to which will be decided based on how much you complied and how much you ignored God's commands. For the time being, we should improve things the RIGHT way and do our best to further ourselves in the global community. For some reason, you don't see that working. For me, I see it working everyday. I think that's the core of where we must agree to disagree.
Wow. Wow... Wow... This is a joke right? This thread right? Muslims hate America? Do you mean A Merica? Because that makes more sense. Wow. Wow. I'm almost floored at how much fail this thread has going for it.
Just to quickly jump in here with regards to modernity/education: One of the more amusing sophistries I find endemic to the 'Arab World' is this pervasive ascription to the peculiar belief in the bankruptcy of non-indigenous ideals. While it is understandable to see that this skepticism emerged from the memory of the colonial experience, the assumption of some mutual exclusivity between God's ideals and those of the West is self-injurious. Furthermore, I need to underscore a critical distinction with regard to education. Emphasis on the hard sciences such as engineering and medicine does not suffice in the absence of the social sciences that can actually mobilize a society against state power. This 'monopoly' on education is axiomatic with regard to authoritarian regimes. I would even go so far as to surmise that Islam's intellectual downfall and deficit to modernity first originated through its marginalization and subsequent exclusion of the philosophers from the mainstream Sunni establishment.
