yes. he was good passer, else he wouldn't lead the team in assists. oh..my bad, the CHAMPIONSHIP TEAM in assists. and I know other side topics would show up, trollers would show up, and that would be the norm of a clutchfan thread. but nobody's posts are getting deleted regardless of how off topic they are.
maybe R2K's tired of the trolls, and he doesn't want that to be the norm anymore. i have to admit that i, myself, kinda trolled somewhat earlier on and that really derailed threads. we all know how you feel about mcgrady. let it be. unless you have some new insight/opinions, they are what they are. you're a good poster tinman. your basketball knowledge is pretty deep, share some of that. don't let your dislike of a particular player ruin your reputation as a good basketball mind. i like mcgrady, but seeing how this board is vastly divided, i truly wish he would be traded tomorrow. the board needs to calm down and just focus on rocket basketball, or the history of the team as you so love to talk about.
I didn't plan to elongate that thread and discussion. I just wanted to make my point across that it wasn't always the teammates fault and why there aren't many videos of tmac's passing But R2K wanted to go North Korea on it. I know he personally dislikes me, it's happened twice where he's stated he wishes me out of clutchfans. But I didn't join because R2K figured out how to upload videos. I joined cause of Clutch and his articles and how he lets people know how he feels about certain topics. like this: http://clutchfans.net/feature.cfm?FeatureID=26 Pippen fans were not happy! I don't even have an extreme view on Tmac, I just think he's just gotten a free pass too often. The clutchfans have turned into an excuse making culture, which is not good. I don't even make McGrady threads, the last thread I made was about Summer League! This is a long off season, maybe that's the cause of all this.
Thank you. Living in the present > glorification of the past Oh, and just so I'm not accused of not staying on topic, nice Vernon Maxwell vids. No, really, I mean it...
Why do you give Vernon a free pass after what he did to the Rockets? Why do you give him a free pass after he cussed out Rudy T during a game? Why do you give him a free pass for his illegal behavior? You seem to come up with quite a few excuses of your own, no? Again, you're being a hypocrite because all you do is make up excuses when it comes to Vernon. And look at me... trying to get you to be on-topic in your own thread, but you won't. Or better yet... can't. Let's talk about Vernon... can you answer any of those questions?
I know, tinman. I get it. Dream was a one-of-a-kind player. An all-time great. Never see another like him in our lifetime. He was good enough to get guys a chance to be heroes when they otherwise wouldn't have sniffed a chance at a ring. But for me, the picture has always been bigger than a won playoff round here or there. Or about blown playoff leads or half-hearted defensive plays or anything else that gets caught up in this mess of losing when you aren't supposed to. I know you didn't mean to, tinman, but you kind of did Tracy McGrady a favor, just now. And believe me, I don't think McGrady would notice it if you him in the face with it. When you mentioned how Smith and Maxwell had their best games in Houston to finish off the Knicks, it was Hakeem who bought the both of them the opportunity. If you look at the field goal percentages Hakeem had in that series (or if you got a chance to see any of it...no thanks to O.J. Simpson), you saw what Pat Riley and the Knicks were committed to doing—making it as tough on Hakeem Olajuwon to score "efficiently" as they could. They weren't going to stop him. But they were going to make another guy wearing Rocket Red beat them. Hakeem was a warrior. He never quit and he never gave up. He never even looked like he quit or gave up. It didn't matter how many Knick defenders they threw at him, he was still going to be Hakeem. And the Rockets would have lost that series if some other people hadn't accounted for themselves. It looks better, that that situation happened in the championship round. Says alot about both Hakeem and the Rockets. But see, the Rockets had already been tested earlier that postseason by Phoenix. Vernon Maxwell, in particular, sparked a remarkable turnaround for the Rockets. As bi-polar as Maxwell was, he did his job when the Rockets needed him to. And he was a better player than he would get credit for. he wasn't as good as he though he was, but he was good when he needed to be. This isn't a popular fact either, but as much as we find wrong with Yao and McGrady, they were able to spot their teams series leads when they were both healthy. And it usually follows that somewhere, somebody else would find a way to make themselves a factor in the outcome of a playoff game. That's what these games are all about at this level anyway, tinman. It's not a one-and-done scenario like the NCAA. Luck has its place. But not in front of talent and responsibility and guts. Maxwell and Smith rising to the occasion (championship round or not) had to happen a few times before that for the Rockets to have won the whole thing. And if it wasn't going to happen in the first round with those Rockets (McGrady chickening out or no), than it wasn't going to happen at all. Saying the Rockets lost doesn't get McGrady off the hook, tinman. He's still the same lily-livered, cross-dressing she-male he always was. But the Rockets losing doesn't get any of the rest of them off the hook either...
i don't think tracy has gotten a free pass at all. he's the most criticized on this board BEFORE LAST YEAR, after JVG left. i think last year just made it much easier to blame and criticize tracy b/c tracy made it easy. you simply have factions who think tracy has done enough in the playoffs individually (which includes me) and those who think he could have done more (which includes you). and that's a fine argument/discussion to get into b/c it's a great one. tracy puts up 27, 7, 6 in the playoffs, plays hard/through injuries and has never won a playoff series. it's an intriguing case and is great to talk about. but like i posted before, what tracy failed to do for us last yr when morey did put the talent around him was inexcusable. that was the best supporting cast he has ever had and he failed to play through the season, regardless of injury or not. but this past season should not overshadow what tracy DID go through in previous seasons (the role players WERE not as good, he did play through injuries, and he did rush back from injuries numerous times, and he was a very unselfish player...). i think you would agree on that no tinman? but regardless, this is a different offeason, a one where we go into with yao AND tmac. and i think i like it like that. it's time for a new era to begin. yao could be done, and tmac will be traded. let's talk about the new guys, who's finally bringing the fun that has been lacking for a while. just chill out bro.
cause Vernon (in the book - Keeping it Real - http://www.amazon.com/Keepin-Real-Turbulent-Season-Crossroads/dp/product-description/0380977141) From Publishers Weekly The image-conscious gentlemen who run the NBA will not be pleased by Platt's revealing look at the league. A Philadelphia magazine senior writer, he has crafted an intense behind-the-scenes account of the 1997-98 NBA season by following five playersACharles Barkley, Matt Maloney, Jerry Stackhouse, Chris Webber and Vernon "Mad Max" Maxwell. Having been granted intimate access to the five players, Platt offers a first-hand look at how they handle the temptationsAwomen, drugs, the wrong friendsAof their elite position and negotiate a delicate balance between team and individual responsibilitiesAand sometimes fail. Race is an inescapable subtext of the book as Platt dwells on the difference between "'90s gangsta" players like Maxwell and stars like Michael Jordan and Grant Hill, "crossover" figures who appeal to white America and thus to corporations looking for endorsement pitchmen. Platt, who calls himself "a short, bald, white Jew who was always asking annoying questions," clearly sympathizes with the players against the "suits." He often adopts hip-hop lingo (as in the title) and argues that the conservative mindset of league executives fails to respect the street sensibility of today's young stars. He also has unkind words for most white sportswriters, believing that they are simply jealous of rich, young black men, a phenomenon he calls "playa hating." Some readers will surely think Platt too indulgent of NBA players, but there's no doubt that he presents a picture of these athletes that looks beyond the common caricatures of the role model and the gangsta. Copyright 1999 Reed Business Information, Inc. 1. Rudy and Vernon have made up 2. Vernon was Vernon and you know he was an extreme character 3. His illegal behavior was explained, remember he was thrown in jail for 1 gram of weed 4. He NEVER had problems with his teammates. post Rockets, he was friends with most of them. 5. It was about money There. I know you mainly want to make me feel that this is the same thing with Tmac, but it's completely different situations. One guy was brought here to be the superstar, the other guy we got for $50,000. And yes I read rudy's book too. I own it. If Vernon never showed remorse or went I wish I played with Tim Duncan, I would have not felt the same way.
+1 for this post.. I think you have balanced both views perfectly. and i am sure many people will still disagree with you.
that was one team and one year. if you look back at the Drexler, Dream, Barkley era. We got further than then entire Tmac/Yao era. any thing else you want to know?
why is this ridiculous? its a thread for everyone, i will never understand why anyone complains online, you are not forced to read the content, so if you don't like it, don't read it, if no one looks at it, it goes away, so you are only making it worse by commenting on every page you hate (i use 'you' as a general term for any one on this forum who complains about others threads)
I actually hate Vernon Maxwell now. I used to love him. I loved his fire, aggressive defense and never surrender intensity. I loved his fall away game winning shots, his playoff heroics and even loved him going up into the stands in Portland. Vernon, I just want to let you know that I don't hate you because of you got kicked off the '95 team, or because of your run-ins with the law. I don't even hate you for being a deadbeat dad. I hate you because of Tinman.
Because we had Drexler, Dream and Barkley. Yes. I want to know how you expect T-Mac and an oft-injured Yao paired with a bunch of scrubs to accomplish anything substantial.
Because it's gratifying to remind the rest of us that they didn't. Sometimes I think we all forget that we're rooting for the same team.
I used to really love watching Maxwell play, especially against MJ and the bulls. Max would play amazing D on MJ and never backed down. I remember one game we played in Chicago and Michael made a nice shot and gave MadMax a stare while talkin to him. As they were coming down to the other end Vernon got into MJ's face, started talkin back and didnt back down one bit. That was the kind of player Maxwell was. Another rockets moment that comes to mind involving Max was when he hit that turn around 3 pointer from like almost half court to beat the heat.
Vernon Maxwell was tough player, but controversial at the same time. He was talented, but he thought he was much more talented. But, by 93 he figured out his role...to shoot the open shots created by Dream, and to create when teams would swarm around Dream. He an OT had a nice little pick n roll game...he was a good passer, with a 2:1 assists to turnover ratio. He was also capable of shooting his way to a win or going ice cold from the field to shooting you out of a game. Also, to compare Vernon Maxwell to Tmaci s a complete joke...whoever brought it up. Maxwell at his best was a nice role player and great defender. He never had anything remotely close to the responsibilities Tracy McGrady had. Even as a role player, Vernon Maxwell's career shooting %'s were AWFUL!! http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/maxweve01.html His highest % in a full season with the Rockets was 41% (92 season, we didn't make the playoffs). His highest playoff shooting % was 41% (91 playoffs). In his 5 full seasons as a Rocket, he actually averaged 13.5 field goal attempts per game, This # goes up to 16 FGA per game in his playoff appearances with Houston. so he was taking a lot of shots, but wasn't that efficient either, even though most of his shots were open shots created by Dream. Very streaky to say the least. Also, Tinman you say its absurd that people, (such as myself) criticize Tmac's teammates, and say look at Maxwell's teammates. A few problems with that 1.) Maxwell wasn't a leader, and not even the 2nd best player on his team (OT was IMO)...even shot horrible his entire career, even with a Top 10 all time player in Dream. 2.) Max had Dream, OT, Horry, Smith, Cassell, Elie and others...they won a freakin title!! They were talented, but lacked star power, but Dream>>>>>Tmac+Yao. 3.) From 2005 to 2007, Tmac and Yao's supporting cast was horrible and there was no depth. In 2008, Yao got injured, and 2009, Tmac got injured, but no way we lose with Yao, Tmac, Artest, improved Scola, Landry, and Brooks. Finally, for people who talk about Tmac "quitting" on ONE REGULAR SEASON game...Vernon Maxwell quit when the Rockets simply needed bodies more than anything else...They were down to 9 players left in the playoffs after he quit on the team...with guys like Chucky Brown, Pete Chilcut, and Charles Jones. He left his team for dead, even though Dream helped carry him and his teammates to a title the year before, and Rudy T. put up with his antics and distractions. Luckily, Dream and Clyde (2 Hall of Famers...not Tmac and Yao) were great enough to be able to lead our team to a title, despite all the issues they faced. However, Horry, Cassell, Smith, and Elie all did step up in the playoffs. For Tmac and Yao, only Luis Scola has been consistently stepping up, nobody else. Imagine if they had 4 players that could step up. Maxwell was a good player, that HELPED us get a title in 94...you wouldn't say Ariza is better than Tmac just because he contributed on a team with Kobe, Gasol, and Odom to a title. However, he wasn't right in the head. This was PROVED by his ACTIONS as a Rocket and as a citizen. The worst thing Tmac has ever done was say some stupid things to the media...Max caused all kind of disturbances with the Rockets and has had a lot of off court trouble as well. Plus he was dumb enough to insult Michael Jordan before facing him in a game... Vernon Maxwell saying "to hell with Jordan and Pippen" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-93KvGeznUc MJ torches him for 48 in 3 quarters.
you mean he torched STACKHOUSE for that many points. I remember the game, didn't just read the youtube description dude. yeah you got that from the description. Stackhouse was the 2 and Maxwell was playing point guard under John Lucas. <object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/zvSUbvdWbRk&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/zvSUbvdWbRk&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object> While playing Jordan as a Rocket, Maxwell had some great defensive battles. I don't want to post all those articles again. I'm sure you can find them.
BlackKnight, I commend you for doing your research on this, but you ALEADY admitted you were 6 years old when this happened. you DIDN'T watch all the games that I did, because I grew up watching this team. you are making conclusions based on stats and youtube videos on Maxwell. Maxwell was a streak shooter, EVERYBODY in the NBA knew that. He wasn't suppose to be Reggie Miller. But the point of Vernon Maxwell is not his shooting percentage. It was his play on the court on the defense end, it was his trash talking and his energy. Like I said I commend you for your research, but you don't know jack about Maxwell since you were 3 years old when I was watching play games at the Summit. I don't know jack about the Moses Malone era, only that Moses was a legendary center, that's why I let leebigez and the older posters talk about him. But the 90s Rockets were my team. And I could spot that you were generalizing Vernon based on research. That's like if you asked a fan today about Scola, it's hard to describe his tenacity and stats wouldn't do it justice. Just like stats don't do Maxwell justice. you know that Maxwell has a crap game, but if he hits 2 three pointers in a row, you know he could drop 30 in a quarter on you.
the bunch of 'scrubs' turned out ok taking the Lakers to 7 games. I don't think Battier or Scola or Brooks or Landry are scrubs. I think they are good players who need their touches to perform and get better.
