http://espn.go.com/mlb/news/2002/0618/1396456.html Why is Estes going to be fined when Clemens wasn't after he hit Bonds when he said he was going to?
Maybe because Roger Clemens is a Hall of Famer and Estes is a scrub?Major League Baseball has no leader in the front office. Selig is just a puppet for all the owners to play with. Baseball needs another Judge Kenasaw Mountain Landis.
He was wrong about "Shoeless" Joe Jackson as well. Check out Buck Weaver's web site: http://www.gingerkid.com/
I'm with you on that. I didn't want to say too much b/c it's so controversial. His case was too strong to deserve that punishment. Anyhoo, back on topic: I can't see how Estes should be fined. Really, now they are fining people who do an act that only merits a warning in-game?!? Baseball is practically begging for a clean-out at the top.
He was wrong about banning a player who took money to throw a world series, and in all likelyhood did intionally play poorly in said series? What, if anything, does merit exclusion from the hall of fame Finn? I just don't understand any arguments for putting Joe in the hall of fame.
i think, that as OBVIOUS as it was, it can't be proven that Clemens intentionally meant to plunk Piazza... however EVERYONE knew the game plan for Estes... i'm in NO way defending MLB's actions, but if you look at it this way, it sorta kinda maybe makes sense.
dylan, Joe Jackson DID NOT take money to throw the world series. Joe Jackson DID NOT play poorly in said series. Joe Jackson and Buck Weaver were banned for life from Major League Baseball because they were offered money to throw the series, but both declined. They were banned because they had knowledge of it, not for their participation. Here are the FACTS: http://www.blackbetsy.com/jjrelate.htm
i think, that as OBVIOUS as it was, it can't be proven that Clemens intentionally meant to plunk Piazza... however EVERYONE knew the game plan for Estes... How so? Clemens said "I'm going to introduce myself to that elbow pad real quick" and then proceeded to hit the elbow pad. Estes said "We'll see what I do" and threw a pitch behind Clemens. I would think, if anything, Clemens was "more" obvious, even though both were quite obvious. Clemens actually hit his guy too, while Estes didn't.
Bob, you are incorrect. Joe did, in fact, take $5,000. The page you mentioned even admits that much. It is indisputable that Joe took money to throw the world series. Whether he did actually try to thow games is up to some debate but I believe that by looking in depths at his stats is it clear that he did. Some evidence: "But the evidence suggests that Jackson did not try his best. The White Sox and Reds played eight games in the 1919 World Series. The evidence suggests that the conspirators tried to win three games, and they tried to lose five. Jackson hit .545 in the three games he wanted to win. In the first four games the conspirators wanted to lose, Jackson hit .250 with zero RBI. In the fifth fixed game, Jackson was hitless until the Reds were ahead 5-0, at which point he hit a solo home run. Later, with the Sox trailing the Reds 10-1, Jackson hit a meaningless two-run double." His defense is also called into question: "In the field, Jackson's play was questionable, too. Triples are rarely hit to left field ... yet in the 1919 World Series, three of Cincinnati's nine triples were hit to left field, where Jackson was stationed. And there were other things, too. White Sox pitcher Dickie Kerr, who won twice in the Series, later commented, "Our outfielders fielded base hits slow, allowing the Reds to take extra bases. And, there were times when the fielders played the Reds just opposite of what they were supposed to do. In that way they left gaps for the ball to fall safely." This is from a column written for espn.com by Rob Neyer: http://espn.go.com/classic/s/2001/0730/1232950.html I do have much sympathy for Weaver but I am simply apalled by those who look at Jackson's case and still think he belongs in the hall. BobFinn*, assuming that you just didn't realize that he took $5000, do you still believe he belongs in the hall?
During the Series, Jackson played his heart out to win, and it shows in both the statistics and the play by play account. The statistics for Joe are as follows: A) .375 Series BA (12/32) B) His 12 hits set a then Major League record for hits in a World Series. He should have had 13 hits, but one was taken away and charged an error on the fielder. C) 5 runs scored (25% of the team's runs scored) D) 3 doubles (30% of the team's doubles) E) The only home run of the Series F) 6 RBIs (35% of the team's RBIs) G) Scored from 1st on a single H) Flawless fielding, committed 0 errors during the Series I) In situations during which the game score was close (two runs or less), Jackson had an incredible .450 batting average during the Series. For a detailed look at Jackson's performance in close game situations, please see the play by play account. J) Game 4, 5th inning: With the game tied up at 0-0, Jackson made a throw to home plate which many who were there said it would have gunned down a Reds baserunner at the plate. However, Cicotte deflected the ball into the grandstand away from catcher Ray Schalk and allowed the only two runs of the game to score. IF there was any time for Jackson to flub a play, that would have been it. However, Cicotte knew Jackson's throw was right on line and deflected it away. Jackson attempted to throw out the runner's at the plate. After the Series ended, Lefty Williams approached Joe with $5,000 in cash. Joe refused the money and stormed out of the hotel. Both Jackson and Williams testified under oath that Joe did not accept the money, instead the money was dumped on Joe. Joe took the cash to Charles Comiskey, the White Sox owner. Comiskey could not see Joe, because he was learning of the fix from other ballplayers. However, Harry Grabiner, Comiskey's secretary, told Joe to keep the money. Once the fix was exposed, Comiskey and his lawyer, Alfred Austrian, stated they were going to work for the ballplayers. However, in reality, Austrian was only interested in protecting Comiskey's best interests. They told Jackson that "he needed to sign this document to become a witness". That document ended up being a confession, however nobody read the document to Jackson. There was never anyone who said they did read the document to Jackson. A confession signed in that matter would NOT stand up in any court in America today. Jackson was found not guilty of any wrongdoing in the Series by the jury. However, Commissioner Kenesaw Mountain Landis, went against the court's ruling and banned Jackson for life. In 1924, Jackson was again found not guilty of any wrongdoing by a different jury when he sued Comiskey for back pay. However, Landis, blatantly ignored the court's ruling for a second time.
i'm talking about Clemens and Piazza... he hit Mike in the head... are you talking about Bonds? He hit Barry in the elbow pad, and claimed to do so before the game... those are 2 different situations... Clemens totally deserves being reprimanded for the Bonds drama, for we all KNOW it was intentional... but not so for the Piazza plunk As for Estes, come on... everyone and their mom knew that some sort of retaliation was coming... i mean it was the buzz of baseball for the entire week leading up to the game!
1) Clemens neither said, nor implied he was plunking Barry before the game. Twas a case of "Creative Quoting". 2) The pitch Clemens hit Barry with was practically a strike, the pitch Estes threw was clearly not. Barry was setting up on top of the plate, and when you sit on the plate, you get plunked. Roger did not, yet Estes - a serious control pitcher - threw a pitch behind him. Intent was obvious. Thats why he should be reprimanded, and Roger not.
I think by enforcing a meager $750 fine the league was almost agreeing that Roger deserved to be plunked. It would be interesting to see if it were still that small of a fine if he actually hit him. But, come on, $750 is chump change for those guys and everyone knows it. If anything, it was a shot at Clemens and his a-hole reputation. It's like, who wouldn't pass a chance to nail Roger for only $750. I didn't know they even gave out fines of less than a thousand bucks anymore.
oops, sorry guys... i thought we were discussing clemens plunking piazza vs. estes trying to hit clemens... guess i should have read the original post more carefully... i'm dumb.
to make up for my stupidity... Clemens side of the story: Clemens: There Was No Threat Says Media Twisted Banter About Bonds June 12, 2002 By JACK O'CONNELL, Courant Staff Writer NEW YORK -- Roger Clemens said Tuesday night that his words were taken out of context last week when he told reporters he would "introduce" himself to Barry Bonds in their matchup Sunday. In his second at-bat of the game, Bonds was struck by a pitch from Clemens, triggering an investigation by Bob Watson, Major League Baseball's disciplinarian. "I don't know anything about it," Clemens said of the investigation that could lead to a suspension or fine for the six-time Cy Young Award winner. A major league official said Watson had received testimony from plate umpire Joe West, who shortly after Bonds was hit issued a warning against Giants pitcher Russ Ortiz after he threw a high, inside fastball to Jason Giambi. The official said he doubted that Clemens would be suspended but that Watson had to be satisfied the pitcher was not carrying out some threat. "I'd be disappointed" if action were taken against Clemens, Yankees manager Joe Torre said. "Why don't they investigate pitchers who throw the ball down the middle of the plate and let hitters knock the ball out of the ballpark?" Torre was defending a pitcher's right to work the inside of the plate. Bonds wears a plastic protective device on his right elbow and leans over the plate. Clemens had said last week of Bonds, "He's got that big old piece of plastic. We'll see if we can get him to take that off real quick." Giants manager Dusty Baker's interpretation of that remark was that Clemens intended to hit Bonds. "Anything like that is all media-driven," said Clemens, who then backed off from that statement. "I didn't read all the stories, so I can't fault everyone." Talking to reporters last Thursday about the impending showdown, Clemens spoke pleasantly about having paired up with Bonds during their college days at Texas and Arizona State, respectively. Clemens said he would "introduce myself to him real quick," in response to a question about what his approach would be against the player who set the major-league record of 73 home runs last year. "It went from talking about Arizona State and having some fun with Barry to people putting it together and making it out to be a threat," Clemens said. "I have enough to do trying to get people out and winning a ballgame. It does me no good to make any comment about Barry." "I don't want my pitchers to hit Barry, but if they're going to miss off the plate, I want it to be inside, not outside," Torre said. "If pitchers aren't allowed to do that, then I don't know the answer. I don't understand the idea that if you hit a guy it's on purpose but if you throw it down the middle and give up a home run it's an accident."
