Can you guys fill me in on what this guy's game is all about? I really haven't seen any of him, and these numbers are really intriguing. He plays the 3? That's a ton of boards for a center or power forward, let alone a small forward. Could this guy fill any of our needs? He's 6'9 and can shoot the three. He's got the numbers of a rebounding monster (10 RPG, includes 7 def. boards, so it's not like he is just feasting on all of Golden State's missed shots) and a defensive presence (a second shot blocker could sure help us out). Could he start at the 4 (preferable) or the 3? Problem is his big contract, but that might also be the reason we could get him for cheap from Golden State if they want to unload his contract like I believe they do. If we can't use our trade exception in a trade for a Tim Duncan or a top pick and do not feel that Chris Webber will come here anyway (all of which are the most likely scenarios), would it be smart to make use of the exception by shipping Drew and Rogers with the exception for this rebounding shot blocker in what appears to be a talent-for-cap relief swap? So what do you guys who are more familiar with him think? Would this guy be preferable to Kenny T as a starting PF making KT a strong backup? ------------------
Oak, He was a #3 draft pick I think and then seen as a failure in his first couple of seasons, but has improved every year since then and is now a decent player and i my mind would be a perfect fit as a back-up 3 and 4, as someone with a big body, able to pull down lots of boards, gives us some interior presence and able to shoot the three. Is he a FA or do we need to work a trade?? I say get him. Smegorama ------------------
Man, his contract is BIG. I guess he got it back in the days before the rookie salary cap. It's like up around 7 MILLION or something, which is why the Warriors would want to move him for players of less quality like Drew and the exception, at least that was my idea. If he's only going to be a serviceable backup, then that contract's way too high for him. I just brought him up, because he seemed to fit a lot of what the team's wants are: big guys (PFs) who can hit the outside shot, rebounding, and interior D presence (namely shot blocking) I mean there are not that many players out there who bring down 10 boards a game and have those other qualities. 10 boards a game from a SF is INSANE. That's why I thought maybe he could be a candidate for the team's PF of the future if Webber, Duncan, Swift, etc. didn't come through. Plus, we'd get that PF without giving up anything of value to our team in terms of players that are part of our nucleus (Mobley, Cato, KT, pick, etc.) so the stats are just misleading and he's not that great of a player, huh? too bad. how's his O or his man D? ------------------
What's with the Warriors BTW? Foyle at #8 appears to be pretty bad. Marshall at #3 apparently isn't that great. Traded Carter for Jameson. Are their scouts on the other teams' payroll or what? No wonder they consistently suck. At least the Clippers develop some good talent for other teams, i.e. Rodney Rogers, Mo Taylor, Derek Anderson, etc. ------------------ [This message has been edited by oakdogg (edited May 08, 2000).]
They wouldn't have had a chance for Carter, it was a draft day trade basically made to assure the Warriors would get Jamison, and that no one would move up and take him from them. I don't want to use the 4.5 trade exception on Donyell Marshall. He's a role player. We're not to the point where we need little roleplayers. We still need 1-2 more impact players. ------------------ Rockets fans wanted at hoopsboards.com Draft Chat, NBA Chat, Team Chat, and more!
I think we already have Donyell Marshall on our team .... his name's Kenny Thomas Similarities: They both are bad defenders They both are good rebounders They both are terrible shooters They both are smallish PFs They both are too slow to play SF <BR CLEAR="all"><FONT SIZE="3" FACE="Verdana, Arial" COLOR="#000000"><CENTER><TABLE BORDER ALIGN="center"><TR><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center">STATS</DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>MIN</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>FG%</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>3PT%</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>FT%</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>PTS</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>REB</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>AST</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>STL</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>BLK</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>TOs</CENTER></DIV></TD></TR><TR><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>Thomas</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>25.0</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>39.9</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>26.2</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD VALIGN="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>66.0</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD VALIGN="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>8.3</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD VALIGN="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>6.1</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>1.6</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>0.75</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>0.31</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>1.6</CENTER></DIV></TD></TR><TR><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>Marshall (R)</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>29.0</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>39.4</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>28.4</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>66.2</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>12.6</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>5.6</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>1.5</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>0.63</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>1.22</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>1.6</CENTER></DIV></TD></TR><TR><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>Marshall ('00)</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>32.4</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>39.4</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>35.5</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>78.0</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>14.2</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>10.0</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>2.6</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>1.06</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>1.06</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>1.9</CENTER></DIV></TD></TR><TR><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>Marshall (T)</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>26.2</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>40.5</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>31.4</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>72.1</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>11.2</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>6.6</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>1.6</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>0.79</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>0.90</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>1.5</CENTER></DIV></TD></TR></TABLE></FONT></CENTER> *(R) - Rookie *('00) - 2000 *(T) - Career totals Now, if only Thomas could develop into the player Marshall has, I'll be happier. But, I still think they both shoot for way too low a percentage. ------------------ I have a dream.........his name's Hakeem. [This message has been edited by DREAMer (edited May 08, 2000).]
Good comparison, Dreamer. I guess Marshall's rebounding, shot blocking, and 3P% stats overshadowed his FG% stats for me causing me to miss that horrid stat. I also didn't realize Marshall was a bad defender. I guess I just assumed that with his blocks and steals, he was a good defender, which is not always a good assumption. The only difference in their stats is the shot blocking. Shoot, at $8 million per year, Marshall is kind of a ridiculous notion now that I've learned more about him. One guy who might bring similar production as Marshall too is Austin Croshere. He shoots for a better %, and surpisingly, his shotblocking extrapolated over my favorite 35 minutes comes to more than 1 BPG, which ain't bad. I don't know why, but I just get that Shandon Anderson feel about him. Only thing is he's probably more suited to SF than PF, so we may not have a spot for him. If he could say start at the 4, I would really like him for our $2.5 mil. FA exception (if that was enough for him). ------------------
Donyell - highly touted coming out of UConn. He has never really lived up to his billing. Had some good years early, but faded into the Golden State sunset, never to return. Seriously, not a bad player, but he makes too much money and is not a very good defender at all. I say PASS. ------------------ HOOP-T Hey Shaq, Acme called, and they want their bricks back!
one thing to remember when considering marshall's stats: he was probably the best player (since jamison was hurt) on a really, really bad team...that tends to inflate the stats... ------------------
Yeah, being the best player on a bad team can really inflate your stats. Just look at Loy Vaught a couple of years ago when he was on the Clips. He couldn't hack it on another team. ------------------ You can't stop F&Brule, you can only hope to contain him.
Have you guys actually looked at his last seasons number the are very impressive, and are at a level i don't think Kenny will every reach. 2000 Marshall stats 14.2 POints 10.0 Rebounds 2.6 Assists 1.06 Steals 1.06 Blocks He may well have been a complete waste of space for the first few years, but has since improved, and the past seasons number are certainly not too bad for guy faded into the sunset. ------------------
I can see how a player could get more shots on a bad team, thus inflating his scoring average, but do you think his rebounding, esp. defensive rebounding, and blocks and steals would be affected on a bad team. ------------------
I am surprised Cab hasn't popped in, I know he really doesn't like Donyell I think Marshall would be a nice addition. He is a better version than either Los or Walt. He is a much better defender than Walt, a much better rebounder than either, and shoots much better than Los (note his last two years his 3's are about 36%, not Walt-like, but not bad from a 3/4). Too me he is a lot like a more focused Horry, which makes him not a terrible starter, or a terrific sub. Also, his contract isn't great, but at an extra 1 million per year you get a lot more in all around contributions than you get for Walt. I would approach GS and offer Walt and Drew + a 2nd rounder for Donyell (I would think the Warriors might consider it, especially if they then can trade Walt away). We loose a little pure shooting, but gain length, rebounding, and defense. Oh, about the player inflation thing. On a bad team you are also required to take a lot of shots ordinarily you wouldn't have to--so it cuts both ways. Just look at home Larry Hughes FG% plummeted going to the Warriors. If Marshall was on a better team I have no doubt he would improve on his 39%FG (about 47% if you take out 3 shots) and 36% with 3s. [This message has been edited by sir scarvajal (edited May 09, 2000).]
SmeggySmeg, What do you think all those long hours toiling over that table in my previous post were for? ----------------------------- Sir Scar, Did you just skip over my post? Marshall has played like 6 season's in the NBA, and his CAREER FG% is .405 Also, tell me what kind of calculator you were using to get his 47% FG percentage if you take out his threes, please. I want to use it when I calculate my hours for my boss. And another thing, Donyell is nothing like Robert Horry. Horry is an athletic 6'10" guy who can play good defense. Marshall is an unathletic 6'9" guy who doesn't play a lick of D. ------------------ I have a dream.........his name's Hakeem. [This message has been edited by DREAMer (edited May 09, 2000).]
Dreamer, no, I did not skip your post. But I did try to provide some context to why Kenny shooting a low percentage on a team full of guys that break down defenses is not equivelent to Marshall shooting poorly on a team with nobody comparable (at least for the most part of the season). And nobody in the league would get complaints for their PF pulling down 10 boards a game, even if this is about all they do (which isn't the case for Marshall). I don't get where you say Horry and Marshall aren't similar. They are both long 3/4s who can stretch defenses--though neither is a great ball handler, which limits their driving potential. Marshall is 6' 9"--only 1 inch shorter--and has long arms. Both weigh about 230, and both shoot a very similar %'s last year. Also, in Marshall's 6 years he has mainly been on inept offensive teams, where Horry has always be on among the best (how many times has Horry had to force shots??)--again this mitgates some of the shooting % differences. Defensively, Horry has trouble with quicker 3's, or with bigger 4's, as does Marshall. They both block and steal around 1 per game this year, again similar, though Horry's would be modestly better if you adjusted based on MPG. Marshall has become a much better rebounder any way you cut it (offensive/defensive, adjusted or not)--just further evidence of Horry's lack of intensity in this part of the game. If you consider Marshall's defensive rebounding as part of his overall defensive play--I would say he is very comparable to Horry. Further compare their stats below: Career DM 36 41 72 31 0.9 0.8 6.6 1.6 11.2 RH 29 45 73 34 1.1 1.3 5.3 2.6 8.8 This year DM 32 39 72 36 1.1 1.1 10. 2.6 14.2 RH 22 44 78 31 1.1 1.1 4.8 1.6 5.7 I think you would be hard pressed to find two 6' 9ish 3 point shooting 3/4s who are more similar than these two. It looks to me Donyell is still improving (probably topping off about now I suspect) while as Horry started declining a long time ago. I still would much rather have Marshall than either Horry or Walt on my team. He plays harder than Horry, and can do more things than Walt, plus is like 3 years younger than either. All 3 players in my mind make good back-up players (not trying to completely knock what Horry or Walt can do), but if I had to start one I would rather have it be Marshall. As for as the 47% figure, I didn't bring my calculator so I did it quickly by hand. Last year Marshall took 602 FGs taking out 3's, and made 282 of them--whoops, actually he took (840-138) 702 of them. His adjusted % should be 40%, not 47%. Good catch. ------------------
Sir Scar, You and I must look at stats differently, because I see no similarity in a player who shoots .394 from the field and a player who shoots .438 from the field. (DISSIMILAR) No, I wasn't using defensive rebounds when comparing Horry's defense to Marshall's. I said Horry is a better defender, and Marshall's defense is like try to catch water with a fishing net. (DISSIMILAR) I also stated that Horry was more of an athletic 6'10 guy. He's no longer the same slasher he was before he tried to become a PF, but he's still got more athleticism than Marshall. (DISSIMILAR) You yourself said Marshall was a much better rebounder than Horry. (DISSIMILAR) If you mean they have a similar body, I would still argue. Horry carries his 230 lbs much better than Marshall. But, if you want to say they have similar weights and heights, then I can't argue with you on that one. But, if you want to say they are similar players, then you're gonna have to poke my eyeballs out and taser me to death to get me to agree with that. ------------------ I have a dream.........his name's Hakeem.
If you are looking for a perfect match--I guess they are DISIMILAR. I am not trying to poke your eyes out, but to me there are very good players to compare. How many 3/4 tweener 6' 9ish 230ish players who shoot decently from the 3 point line and have some all around skills (versus say completely 1 dimensional players like Mills or Person) are out there?? How many have trouble against faster 3's and bigger 4's, but can also cause match-up problems for similar reasons and because of their shooting range? How many got a block per game this year, how many got a steal a game this year? If you factor all this in I think you will have a very short list to work from. So we agree they have very similar heights, build, frames, skills, etc. You say Horry is significanlty more athletic, I can buy this but would say if anything only slightly (we are not talking about the rookie Horry if you have watched him much). Also, I don't think Horry carries the weigth better at all-if anything this has hurt him quite a lot. You claim shooting 39% & 36% (DM-FG & 3s) is dissimilar from 44% % 31 (RH-same stats), I say there shooting differences are isn't practically relevant (maybe someone can provide that PPshot figure or Dr. of Dunk's stat). I would add that I think this shooting difference is further mitigated when you consider the offenses they play for--and generally have played for throughout their career. I would think if you looked at the difference between their indiviudal % and their teams %--which gives you an idea of the quality of shots their teams generates in general--there wouldn't be much difference at all. I think we also agree the main difference right now is a little bit of youth and rebounding intensity--which is why I think Marshall would be a nice nominal pick up (say for Walt, Drew, + 2nd rounder or the like). I don't have a problem if you disagree with this, plenty of other I believe still share this view too (e.g., ThaCabbage). But IMO Walt, Marshall and Horry all have undesirable contract properties, and at least with Marshall, you get good effort, rebounding, 3-point range, and some other all around skill. [This message has been edited by sir scarvajal (edited May 09, 2000).]
I have to agree with Sir like usual on the Marshal issue. For some odd reason people have never watched the guy play but still knock the poor guy. He is one of the most underrated ball player out there(his contract is what makes him seem like a bad player) obviously he is no supperstar but the guy is a good player. Has an excellent low post game for a 3 and can outboard most 4's the guy can hit the three if given talent around him, also his d is not All league but it is solid, he can be beaten by the quicker 3's but then again he makes them pay once he gets them down low. For the life of me I don't know why people knock players that they don't watch. As for Horry he sucks now, La thought that since he did well at the 4 in the Rockets championship runs that if he could bulk up they would have their new showtime version of AC, but when he put on the weight it tottaly deteriorated his game, he is slower than Marshal now and has pretty much become a shot blocking Matt Bullard. If it were not for Donyell's contract and team he would be getting jocked like crazy from NBA fans. Don't get me wrong this guy is no superstar nor is he even close to being an allstar but he is an excellent roleplayer who can help a good team but not a bad one. As for his stats, they were not padded at all for IversonII was on the team(Lary Hughes) taking an average of 24+ shots a game. ------------------ "We need to fockass".....Dream back in the day
Scarface, Soooooo, what your saying is that you DISAGREE with Sir Scar.... You just said that Horry and Marshall are NOT similar. I actually like Donyell, of course his contract sucks, but he's worked hard and improved, but got dangit, HE'S NOTHING LIKE ROBERT HORRY. They have totally different games. The absolute only similarity in their games is that they both shoot the 3. And, neither are that successful at it. ------------------ I have a dream.........his name's Hakeem.
I haven't seen Marshall play much I'll admit, but in comparing him to Horry, you can't understate the rebounding. I just extrapolated Horry's stats over 35 mins. for comparison, and he's getting a measly 5.36. He's done better in past years I'm sure and Shaq's been grabbin' a ton of boards, but 5.36 is just plain embarrassing for a POWER forward under any circumstances. Marshall's getting 10 while playing the SMALL forward a lot. Tim Thomas is another big guy with three point range among other positives who has been talked about on the BBS. Even at 6'10 and with very long arms, Tim Thomas is only pulling down 5 and a half rebounds extrapolated over 35 minutes. Of course, Tim plays the 3 almost exclusively in Milwaukee. I think these comparisons do point out just how rare a player putting up stats like Marshall is. If the Rockets really wanted a PF who can hit the three (I'm getting that need from the Rudy quote), grab rebounds (goes without saying for our power forward. shoot, i consider Fortson a complete monster on the boards, and he's only grabbed 10 boards once while starting at CENTER on a bad team. compare that to Marshall at small forward. realize also that board favorite has NEVER achieved this feat), and block some shots (got that from some write-up on the Rockets' needs - Sporting News or something), who are the other candidates in the draft or who are available thru FA or thru trades? I can't think of many, that's why Marshall jumped out at me so much. A question about Marshall's D: Marshall struggles with quicker small forwards, but what are his problems with power forwards? He weighs 230, but a lot of the big-time power forwards like McDyess, Rasheed Wallace, and even CWebb aren't really much bigger. Is there anything else keeping him from playing power forward in this league? I don't really like his contract, but maybe if our efforts at getting the BIG fish that would fit this team out there just don't work out, and the Rox feel comfortable with the current mix and the Rockets feel they can get a starter at the 3 or the 4, Donyell Marshall might be an option as a long-term (he's only 26, so he's as young as a lot of the guys in our nucleus) starter/strong contributor for the team provided he only cost the team Drew and change. ------------------ [This message has been edited by oakdogg (edited May 10, 2000).] [This message has been edited by oakdogg (edited May 10, 2000).] [This message has been edited by oakdogg (edited May 10, 2000).]
