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Yet more ethnic unrest in China with at least 100 dead

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by Ari, Jul 6, 2009.

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Ari Member

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Figures are anywhere from 100 to 600 dead and thousands injured. This is major news yet I barely see anything on it from the mainstream media.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8135203.stm

Scores killed in China protests

Violence in China's restive western region of Xinjiang has left at least 140 people dead and more than 800 people injured, state media say.

Several hundred people were arrested after a protest, in the city of Urumqi on Sunday, turned violent.

Beijing says Uighurs went on the rampage but one exiled Uighur leader says police fired on students.

The protest was reportedly prompted by a deadly fight between Uighurs and Han Chinese in southern China last month.

The BBC's Chris Hogg in Shanghai says this is one of the most serious clashes between the authorities and demonstrators in China since Tiananmen Square in 1989.

'Dark day'

Eyewitnesses said the violence started on Sunday in Urumqi after a protest of a few hundred people grew to more than 1,000.

Xinhua says the protesters carried knives, bricks and batons, smashed cars and stores, and fought with security forces.

Wu Nong, news director for the Xinjiang government, said more than 260 vehicles were attacked and more than 200 shops and houses damaged.

Most of the violence is reported to have taken place in the city centre, around Renmin (People's) Square, Jiefang and Xinhua South Roads and the Bazaar.

The police presence was reported to be heavy on Monday.

Adam Grode, an American studying in Urumqi, told Associated Press: "There are soldiers everywhere, police are at all the corners. Traffic has completely stopped."

A witness in the Xinjiang city of Kashgar told AP there was a protest there on Monday of about 300 people but there were no clashes with police.

It is still unclear who died in Urumqi and why so many were killed.

The Xinjiang government blamed separatist Uighurs based abroad for orchestrating attacks on ethnic Han Chinese.

But Uighur groups insisted their protest was peaceful and had fallen victim to state violence, with police firing indiscriminately on protesters in Urumqi.

Dolkun Isa, a spokesman for the World Uyghur Congress (WUC) in Munich, disputed the official figures, saying the protest was 10,000 strong and that 600 people were killed.

He rejected reports on Xinhua that it had instigated the protests.

Xinhua had quoted the Xinjiang government as blaming WUC leader Rebiya Kadeer for "masterminding" the violence.

But Mr Isa said the WUC had called on Friday only for protests at Chinese embassies around the world.

Alim Seytoff, the vice-president of another Uighur group - the US-based Uighur American Association - condemned the "heavy-handed" actions of the security forces.

"We ask the international community to condemn China's killing of innocent Uighurs. This is a very dark day in the history of the Uighur people," he said.

When asked about the rioting, UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon said that all governments must protect freedom of speech and "the life and safety of civilian populations".

A spokesman for UK PM Gordon Brown said Britain was urging "restraint on all sides".

Italian President Giorgio Napolitano said he had raised the issue of human rights with visiting Chinese President Hu Jintao in Rome.

Internet blocks

The Uighurs in Urumqi were reportedly angry over an ethnic clash last month in the city of Shaoguan in southern Guangdong province.

A man there was said to have posted a message on a local website claiming six boys from Xinjiang had "raped two innocent girls".

Police said the false claim sparked a vicious brawl between Han and Uighur ethnic groups at a factory. Two Uighurs were killed and 118 people were injured.

BBC sources in China report they have been unable to open the Twitter messaging site in Shanghai and that message boards on Xinjiang on a number of websites were not taking posts.

Reports from Xinjiang suggest some internet and mobile phone services have been blocked.

Analysts say the government's so-called Great Firewall of China, which it uses to block unwanted internet material, will prevent large-scale dissemination of information but that dedicated internet users can bypass it fairly easily.

BBC China editor Shirong Chen says there has been ethnic tension in Xinjiang since before the founding of the People's Republic.

Some of its Uighur population of about eight million want to break away from China and its majority Han Chinese population.

The authorities say police are securing order across the region and anyone creating a disturbance will be detained and punished.

However, our China editor says there may be questions asked about their inability to prevent a protest they knew about days in advance.

------------------

UIGHURS AND XINJIANG

# Uighurs are ethnically Turkic Muslims
# They make up about 45% of the region's population. 40% are Han Chinese
# China re-established control in 1949 after crushing short-lived state of East Turkestan
# Since then, large-scale immigration of Han Chinese
# Uighurs fear erosion of traditional culture
# Sporadic violence since 1991
# Attack on 4 Aug 2008 near Kashgar kills 16 Chinese policemen
Click to expand...

#1 Ari, Jul 6, 2009

Ari Member

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The Xinjiang Massacre?

#2 Ari, Jul 6, 2009
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I went to that city a few years ago, it seemed tense even then - there were literally two cities, with the chinese on one side of a giant highway overpass and the Uighurs on the other. It actually reminded me a bit of the way 90/94 bisects the Robert Taylor Homes in Chicago from the Irish neighborhood (bridgeport?) on the south side.

#3 SamFisher, Jul 6, 2009
Ari Member

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SamFisher said:

I went to that city a few years ago, it seemed tense even then - there were literally two cities, with the chinese on one side of a giant highway overpass and the Uighurs on the other. It actually reminded me a bit of the way 90/94 bisects the Robert Taylor Homes in Chicago from the Irish neighborhood (bridgeport?) on the south side.
Click to expand...

See? We are not all really that different after all

#4 Ari, Jul 6, 2009
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Yes, truly bloody. Many civilians, including women and children, were killed by machetes and sticks in the street.

Warning, NSFW.

http://www.mitbbs.com/article2/Military/32110279_258.jpg

http://www.popyard.com/cgi-mod/newspage.cgi?num=356863&r=0

Ari said:

The Xinjiang Massacre?
Click to expand...

#5 davidwu, Jul 6, 2009
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So was most of the people killed by the rioters or killed by the police?

#6 pirc1, Jul 6, 2009
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pirc1 said:

So was most of the people killed by the rioters or killed by the police?
Click to expand...

that's a great question. Without any doubt, the Chinese police have killed all 140 Hans and started the fire that burned their police cars and office buildings.

Free rioters.

This is the only case where the brave Muslims getting the support from western world.

#7 redao, Jul 6, 2009

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pirc1 said:

So was most of the people killed by the rioters or killed by the police?
Click to expand...

The casualty was mostly caused by organized muslim terrorist. As of now, 58 bodies have been found in the smaller streets where single civilian were ambushed and murdered throughout the night. The figure is expected to rise and more bodies to be found still as some of the bodies were reportedly dumped into wells to cover the killing.

World Uyghur Congress (WUC) currently is the only one voicing any support for the riot/terrorism, and is believed to be heavily involved in organizing/directing this incident

#8 ty185, Jul 6, 2009
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redao said:

that's a great question. Without any doubt, the Chinese police have killed all 140 Hans and started the fire that burned their police cars and office buildings.
Click to expand...

The PRC is apparently the only autocratic police state in the world with a 2 milion man PLA and probably millions more of police forces that manages to get routinely run out of town by marauding hordes of a few hundred dirt poor stone and bottle throwing Tibetan and Uighur villagers and slum dwellers.......poor china.

Maybe you should go to crowd control school.

And by the way, maybe somebody should mention the cause of the demonstration - the beating deaths of Uighur laborers in a Guangzhou toy factory.

#9 SamFisher, Jul 6, 2009
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SamFisher said:

The PRC is apparently the only autocratic police state in the world with a 2 milion man PLA and probably millions more of police forces that manages to get routinely run out of town by marauding hordes of a few hundred dirt poor stone and bottle throwing Tibetan and Uighur villagers and slum dwellers.......poor china.

Maybe you should go to crowd control school.

And by the way, maybe somebody should mention the cause of the demonstration - the beating deaths of Uighur laborers in a Guangzhou toy factory.
Click to expand...

maybe because there are 1.4 billion people in China and they actually need that many police and military forces?
and by the way, how should they control a crowd of mobs that publicly beated and killed innocent civilians? Just because they are the minorities doesnt mean they can ignore the law. what do you think the american police will do if a crowd of black or mexican people target white people and start killing them?

#10 Matchman, Jul 6, 2009
ty185 Member

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SamFisher said:

The PRC is apparently the only autocratic police state in the world with a 2 milion man PLA and probably millions more of police forces that manages to get routinely run out of town by marauding hordes of a few hundred dirt poor stone and bottle throwing Tibetan and Uighur villagers and slum dwellers.......poor china.

Maybe you should go to crowd control school.

And by the way, maybe somebody should mention the cause of the demonstration - the beating deaths of Uighur laborers in a Guangzhou toy factory.
Click to expand...

oh sam old sam... if you want to bring up the Guangzhou incident, then at least try to acknowledge what was really behind this whole thing...

First, terrorism of this scale takes months to prepare and organize. the Guangzhou incident happened just a week ago, and serves nothing more than an excuse for the terrorist groups.

Second, if you want to talk about the Guangzhou incident, let's talk about it. Since the early 1980s, Chinese government has adopted a famous REVERSE ethnical differetiating policy in where minor ethnical groups would enjoy considerable economical and political advantages in the hope to aid their development.

Some of the prime examples for such policies include: Ethnical students enjoys a considerable bonus on their University Entrance Exam; Law enforcements are required to "avoid arresting ethnical minorities unless absolutely necessary; avoid sueing ethnical minorities unless absolutely necessary; give lenient sentences when ethnical minorities were charged and found guilty" (the infamous "two less, one lenient" policy).

The initial intentions for this policy was to recognize that a lot of the minority groups leaves in remote areas and have their own ways of life that does not necessarily conform to the outside laws and regulations. It was hoped that such reverse ethnical protection would help to ease them into the outside society.

However, some major problems has risen since the adoption of this policy. One of the most widespread ones is that minor crimes from ethnical minorities became almost unpunishable due to the "two less, one linient" policy. Uighurs are known as one of the ethnical groups that best took advantage of this loophole, and has controled a significant portion of the theft and robbing rings throughout China.

With their hands tied, law enforcement agencies frequently find that they are unable to punish and deter crimes. As a result, the majority hans frequently found themself at a difficult position when violated by the other minority groups.

The Guangzhou incident, was an eruption of such conflicts. It was reported that some of the Uighur workers committed numerous beating, stealing, and sexual harrassment towards their Han co-workers before the incident of Guangzhou. With law enforcement unable to fully protect them, the angry Han workers decided to take the revenge themselves.

Furthermore, after the Guangzhou incident, the people who are responsible for the violence has been arrested and are being aggressively charged, in accordance to the "protecting minority ethnical groups" scheme.

To blame the guangzhou incident for the terrorism happened two days ago, is either terribly misinformed, or is only interested in spreading their anti-china propaganda, or both.

#11 ty185, Jul 6, 2009
Ari Member

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ty185 said:

oh sam old sam... if you want to bring up the Guangzhou incident, then at least try to acknowledge what was really behind this whole thing...

First, terrorism of this scale takes months to prepare and organize. the Guangzhou incident happened just a week ago, and serves nothing more than an excuse for the terrorist groups.

Second, if you want to talk about the Guangzhou incident, let's talk about it. Since the early 1980s, Chinese government has adopted a famous REVERSE ethnical differetiating policy in where minor ethnical groups would enjoy considerable economical and political advantages in the hope to aid their development.

Some of the prime examples for such policies include: Ethnical students enjoys a considerable bonus on their University Entrance Exam; Law enforcements are required to "avoid arresting ethnical minorities unless absolutely necessary; avoid sueing ethnical minorities unless absolutely necessary; give lenient sentences when ethnical minorities were charged and found guilty" (the infamous "two less, one lenient" policy).

The initial intentions for this policy was to recognize that a lot of the minority groups leaves in remote areas and have their own ways of life that does not necessarily conform to the outside laws and regulations. It was hoped that such reverse ethnical protection would help to ease them into the outside society.

However, some major problems has risen since the adoption of this policy. One of the most widespread ones is that minor crimes from ethnical minorities became almost unpunishable due to the "two less, one linient" policy. Uighurs are known as one of the ethnical groups that best took advantage of this loophole, and has controled a significant portion of the theft and robbing rings throughout China.

With their hands tied, law enforcement agencies frequently find that they are unable to punish and deter crimes. As a result, the majority hans frequently found themself at a difficult position when violated by the other minority groups.

The Guangzhou incident, was an eruption of such conflicts. It was reported that some of the Uighur workers committed numerous beating, stealing, and sexual harrassment towards their Han co-workers before the incident of Guangzhou. With law enforcement unable to fully protect them, the angry Han workers decided to take the revenge themselves.

Furthermore, after the Guangzhou incident, the people who are responsible for the violence has been arrested and are being aggressively charged, in accordance to the "protecting minority ethnical groups" scheme.

To blame the guangzhou incident for the terrorism happened two days ago, is either terribly misinformed, or is only interested in spreading their anti-china propaganda, or both.
Click to expand...

LOL! If the above was intended for comical relief, then mission accomplished! :-D

Let me guess: you are a Han Chinese, and you are taught that the almighty, just and righteous Han ruling party - also known as the CCP - has gone over and beyond to make Tibetans and Uyghurs feel welcome in their forcibly adopted homeland (lets not brush over the historical fact that they were defeated, subdued and then had their lands stolen and ethnic identities and religious practices viciously repressed by perhaps the world's only true and unapologetically totalitarian government. I am OK with that historical fact, I am just saying lets not brush over it and ignore it as a non-factor in how these ethnic minorities feel in the face of overwhelming odds against a thoroughly dominating Han majority).

Close enough?

#12 Ari, Jul 6, 2009
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Ari said:

LOL! If the above was intended for comical relief, then mission accomplished! :-D

Let me guess: you are a Han Chinese, and you are taught that the almighty, just and righteous Han ruling party - also known as the CCP - has gone over and beyond to make Tibetans and Uyghurs feel welcome in their forcibly adopted homeland (lets not brush over the historical fact that they were defeated, subdued and then had their lands stolen and ethnic identities and religious practices viciously repressed by perhaps the world's only true and unapologetically totalitarian government. I am OK with that historical fact, I am just saying lets not brush over it and ignore it as a non-factor in how these ethnic minorities feel in the face of overwhelming odds against a thoroughly dominating Han majority).

Close enough?
Click to expand...

lol. why did I have the feeling that such labelling would come out once there's not enough facts to refute what I said? let's see...

you are a Han Chinese - You are one of THEM! - check
you were taught - You are brainwashed! - check
by the CCP - oh the all evil CCP! by mentioning the name itself ensures a moral victory - check check

I'm not even going to go into the historical debates which is obvious that we are not going to persuade each other on. I am just saying:

1. This is not a spontaneous riot. This is terrorism planned by WUC and associated terrorist groups months ago.

2. This riot is not related to the Guangzhou incident.

3. The China governemnt currently employes a policy that heavily leans toward ethnical minority groups. Whether it is a good policy or not is debateable, but such a policy is in place is not debateable.

4. Anyone trying to blame this terrorist to anyone other than the actual terrorist, I question what was their reaction during 911. I can simply replace a couple of words in Ari's last comment, and it would perfectly suit 911 as well.

#13 ty185, Jul 6, 2009

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No matter what you want to say about the communist, you can not justify terrorism!

Yes, it is not a protest, it is terrorism! targetd at civilians!

#14 bob718, Jul 6, 2009
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Dont blame their cheering for the death of Chinese.
We were as happy for the 911 back in 2001.

It is point blank to argue politics between two hating groups.

This time, good job terrorists.

#15 redao, Jul 6, 2009
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ty185 said:

4. Anyone trying to blame this terrorist to anyone other than the actual terrorist,
I wonder what was their reaction during 911.
I can simply replace a couple of words in Ari's last comment, and it would perfectly suit 911 as well.
Click to expand...

Ari,
we patiently await your response.

#16 adoo, Jul 6, 2009
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redao said:

Dont blame their cheering for the death of Chinese.
We were as happy for the 911 back in 2001.

It is point blank to argue politics between two hating groups.

This time, good job terrorists.
Click to expand...

Who is the "we" here?

You can only represent yourself.

#17 bob718, Jul 6, 2009
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bob718 said:

Who is the "we" here?

You can only represent yourself.
Click to expand...

You dont need to fake anything here.

http://www.secretchina.com/news/103147.html
http://pop.pcpop.com/080929/4612533.html
http://news.sina.com.cn/w/2003-02-05/1318898168.shtml

we all know who we are and who they are.

#18 redao, Jul 6, 2009

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yeah, da can kao truly is a reliable source.

BTW, if you ever happen to know a chinese website called cat898.com, I guarantee you, more than 80 % of their members were sympathetic to americans at that time.

#19 bob718, Jul 6, 2009
Ari Member

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ty185 said:

I'm not even going to go into the historical debates which is obvious that we are not going to persuade each other on. I am just saying
Click to expand...

That is because it is not really debatable from a history stand point. I had a Chinese professor once who was an ultra nationalist not unlike yourself, and yet conceded to me that the Han Chinese used "brute power" (his words, not mine) to keep the Tibetans and Muslim minorities in check. He was unapologetic about it, and I respected him for that. I only have a problem when people try to deny facts and choose to spin it in some utterly ridiculous and counter factual way. The deed itself is not the problem.

1. This is not a spontaneous riot. This is terrorism planned by WUC and associated terrorist groups months ago.
Click to expand...

Source/proof? It looks a lot like a race riot, the type we see in India and some parts of Africa all the time, almost in every conceivable way.

2. This riot is not related to the Guangzhou incident.
Click to expand...

Again, your sources? I know the CCP is insisting that is the case, since terrorism is a catch all phrase these days that every country in the world likes to use to justify its often brutal and inhumane counter-terrorism policies. I understand this game very well, and I know why China wants to frame it as such. They may well succeed.

3. The China governemnt currently employes a policy that heavily leans toward ethnical minority groups. Whether it is a good policy or not is debateable, but such a policy is in place is not debateable.
Click to expand...

Right, like denying freedom of religious practice and engineering a demographic shift in previously minority-dominant regions that would bring about a Han majority throughout the land, with the goal being securing those otherwise troublesome and less than fully submissive groups.

What page of the CCP Manifesto is this? I admit I am behind on my readings.

4. Anyone trying to blame this terrorist to anyone other than the actual terrorist, I question what was their reaction during 911. I can simply replace a couple of words in Ari's last comment, and it would perfectly suit 911 as well.
Click to expand...

Right, America got attacked, Han Chinese got attacked, it is all the exact same thing and part of the same universal plot to take over the world. It is all terrorism, even the random street thug stabbing a woman for her purse. I get it, it is the ultimate "shut up and stop over-thinking it!" response.

Coolio, we are good

#20 Ari, Jul 6, 2009

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