to have seen incremental progress at that point was possible, but not enough to expect championship contention in the near future. steve was 27 and already exposed as a severely flawed player. it's just fact that that foundation we had built wasn't going to get it done. to steve's credit, he played his ass off for us, completely changed his role, and never once complained about it - but my critique of his game isn't meant as a character indictment. people subscribing to your ideology talk about 'maturing as a team' but the foundation itself has to be worthy in the first place to even invest that time during the growth period. that team didn't have a very high ceiling. you might have scraped out a few extra wins, but substantial improvement doesn't just come from within when the foundation itself is lacking. no, cato started, that's why i was confused by your confusion. you said we traded 2 and a 1/2 starters for 1 and a 1/2 starters (prompting my kobe analogy). obviously mobley and francis were starters, so i assumed you had forgotten cato was a starter and that he was your 1/2 starter. cato = hayes in my analogy. this is irrelevant of course as you're committing the fallacy of equivocation in that the term 'starter' doesn't have the same descriptive value for mcgrady as it does the others, even though the term is appropriate. as a sidenote, if you ever find yourself having this debate with someone else in the future, i would recommend that you go the "we traded 3/5 of the starting lineup of a playoff team for 3/5 of the starting lineup of the league's worst team." much more rhetorical potency in that one (though of course still logically flawed). yes. he didn't take the most shots, but when not injured or rendered completely ineffective, he was this team's first option. you're clearly not going to get this, so there's no point in me belaboring a response. i'm sorry but decisions are not just critiqued in hindsight in vacuo of the circumstances prompting their action, oblivious to the distinction of the effects of subsequent actions. right, but i never argued otherwise. this is still consistent with my stance. i never said greater talent sufficed improved results. honestly, after having attempted to debate this on a rational level with you, i think i can empathize with your stance much more by simply considering that you would not trade 3 of our starters for kobe bryant and concluding that there is some unmentioned emotional/psychological factor in play here that is the driving force of your argument. which is completely fine - but let's be serious here.
i bet everyone would have loved the barkley trade if we went all the way,that 97 team was good, the move needed to be done to beat the sonics. horry and sam will always be loved, but ppl did complan about horry not be consistant and sam being a ball hog. to many what ifs in the scenario. i loved steve and wish the second go around would have turned out better, but getting tmac was the right move...
Actually .. . I would have preferred just acquiring Kevin Willis [the Cassell Solution] I prefer long term . . .I think we Morgage the future for a short term solution attempt. I am not a fan of Quick Fixes . .. and Barkley Trade was an attempt at a Quick Fix. Rocket River
had brent price not gone down that year, it might have made a big difference. Before he was injured, he was on a 3-point tear.
kevin willis was utterly worthless in the playoffs. we don't get past seattle without charles - if you watched that series, that much is fact. he was a man possessed. sam and robert were both coming up on contract extensions pretty soon as well and there was talk of not being able to re-sign both. at the end of the day, the barkley trade was made to beat seattle and that end was met. while we didn't win a title, i can live with that decision. it had more to do with rudy/carrol's decision to not acquire derek harper before the deadline rather than losing sam and robert. making that trade hurt from an emotional standpoint (which is similar to your situation with steve and cat), but it was absolutely the right move to make from a basketball perspective.
Again . . . beating Seattle is meaningless If we could not beat Utah! What Barkley brought in Offense we lost in Defense Rocket River
this is true too,i bet sinced we owned them previously we took that for granted,looking back i would have gone after kenny when price went down (split time with matt) and try to get OT back, (he was a fa and i always wondered why we didnt try to get him back)
kenny was on his last legs. Remember in 94, then especially in 95, people were calling for Cassell to start. kenny doesn't get enough credit during the early Rocket years when he was such an awesome pick and roll PG. Otis Thorpe helped Grant Hill get to the playoffs. OT is a great Rocket. He's similar to Scola that he's just the hard worker on the team and does all the dirty work, set screens, plays hard on D etc.
true i guess your right about kenny, ot was a fa, i wondered why we didnt try to get him back (had we not gone the barkley route) horry ot dream kenny drexler elie sam i also think we could of done better than chile pete,jones and chucky,yes they helped in 95 but we should of tried to upgrade a little more trying to three-peat
By this logic, we all die so why even attempt to do anything in life? The end result is we die. But our quality of life before we die is why we try to do well in school, at work, with our families, etc. In the surgery situation, you try the surgery b/c you deemed it worth the risk for a *chance* to live longer, although you will eventually die. The Rockets made the trade in hopes that they had a *chance* to go further in the playoffs. It's all in the eyes of the beholder as to whether we improved or not. Our regular season record seems to show we improved except for the year we had both Tracy and Yao out. 50+ wins every year minus the year I just mentioned. Our post season results were (until this year of course) 1st round exits. But, by record we came closer. We went to the playoffs once during the Francis era. The team didn't exactly face scrubs in what was a very strong Dallas team (58 wins) and of course The Jazz (50+ win teams). The Laker team Francis faced was a 56 win team I believe. 2008-09 Houston 53 29 .646 2nd Southwest Division 6 7 .462 Lost West Conf Semis 2007-08 Houston 55 27 .671 3rd Southwest Division 2 4 .333 Lost West Conf 1st Rd 2006-07 Houston 52 30 .634 3rd Southwest Division 3 4 .429 Lost West Conf 1st Rd 2005-06 Houston 34 48 .415 5th Southwest Division - - - DNQ 2004-05 Houston 51 31 .622 3rd Southwest Division 3 4 .429 Lost West Conf 1st Rd 2003-04 Houston 45 37 .549 5th Midwest Division 1 4 .200 Lost West Conf 1st Rd 2002-03 Houston 43 39 .524 5th Midwest Division - - - DNQ 2001-02 Houston 28 54 .341 5th Midwest Division - - - DNQ 2000-01 Houston 45 37 .549 5th Midwest Division - - - DNQ 1999-00 Houston 34 48 .415 6th Midwest Division - - - DNQ You can't argue that Francis finally had help to get to the playoffs if you choose to ignore that McGrady finally had a team that could win without him on the floor this season. Don't take this as a Francis-hate post. I got the dude's shoes and auth jersey still, hahaha. I loved the guy on our team, and was really sad that he couldn't be a bigger part of the team upon his return. So to me, I feel we did improve, although the end result is not much different. 03-04 I didn't feel we really had a chance. Every season since the trade, I felt we had a chance. I suppose that's why the trade was made. Hoping you have a chance.
Wow, you remember something that never actually happened. Clyde's last year was the year before Cat's first year. Cat was the point guard for the Barkley, Dream, Snottie Qutten ROX. I understand though, as I try to forget about Quitten ruining the team too.
Francis played with terrible migrane headaches and Cuttino played knowing he had a heart condition that could have killed him
You have got to be kidding. The Steve Francis and Cuttino Mobley era set the rockets back over 10 years. These were two of the most selfish, ball hog, basketball players that ever played. I think part of the problem is that they had Rudy as a coach. Rudy was a good coach for established players, ala Akeem, Clyde etc. But he was clueless when it came to nurturing talent. Both of these players had raw talent, but never possessed the wisdom or maturity to excel in this league.
Fixed. Cat i didn't mind at all because while he was limited by talent, i never felt like he wasn't maxing out his ability. Cat was severely underrated defensively, was a great lockerroom guy, and was a very serviceable shooting guard. Cat was an unheralded 2nd rd pick that carved out a very good nba career. He is one of my alltime favorites.
You are the on kidding Set back 10 yrs. . .SEE BARKLEY TRADE BARKLEY TRADE RESULTS: Mortgaged Future [Horry and Cassel] Ran off Drexler Brought in Pippen Which lead to Pippen Trade --> 6 players of mediocre calibre holding slots o nthe team One of with was Kelvin 42 million Cato Steve and Cat were an attempt to overcome that Debacle Make no mistake. .the Rockets were in FULL REBUILDING MODE Rocket River
