Dominance is measured against the competition at the time. George Mikan was an extremely dominant player, and its possible he wouldn't even play in the NBA now. But there's no questioning his dominance. Same goes for Wilt. I didn't say that he would go 50/25 now. But the question isn't what he would do now, or whether he was better than Shaq (I think he was, having seen them both). It's a matter of how far they stood apart, and I don't think that there's even room for argument there. (Similarly, one of the reasons for Shaq's dominance was the general low level of center play during the Laker run. He would have been less dominant if he had been in the league 10 years earlier. But that doesn't take anything away from how dominant he was at the time.)
it's embarrassing that they put kobe ahead of hakeem. that's a downright shame. It's really not even close. anyone have the whole list?
Thanks guys, I knew that had to be wrong. Making players better should be a stat, Hakeem would lead that too. The Lakers are trying to get Kobe players to win, Hakeem took what he had & then took his friend along for the next one. If Hakeem didn't want cassel, I'm sure he didn't ask for Barkley in return. His ballhogg was even worse. Atleast sam gave results on both ends of the court
Well, the Rockets did just come off a mediocre year and got swept by the Sonics in the Playoffs. On top of that Dream was 33, and Drexler was 34 heading into the 97 season. They knew their opportunities were numbered. Turns out after 97, Dream had numerous injury issues and Clyde was just old and already said he would retire after 98. So at the time I think going after another star player was the right move. Horry became heavier and couldn't play small forward anymore, but still wasn't quite strong enough to be a starting Power Forward yet.(He got away with it in the 95 playoffs, but Dream wasn't playing at that level anymore by 97). He was still a good player though. He really bulked up in 98 and basically reinvented his career with a more dominant center hitting his prime...Shaq. Cassell was good, but he needs the ball in his hands to be good (reason why Rudy always brought him off the bench so he doesn't take away high % shots from Dream and Clyde). You saw how often he bounced around after he was traded from Houston: Phoenix, Dallas, New Jersey, Milwakee, Twolves, Clippers, Celtics. There was a reason for that... Elie was the one guy that still had value because of his defense and 3 point shooting. Kenny Smith was done during the 96 year pretty much. After our key players, we had Mark Bryant, Chucky Brown, Pete Chilcutt, Tim Breaux, Tracy Murray, Sam Mack, and Eldridge Recasner. A bunch of CBA players. Not gonna cut it in the NBA. We had no choice but to go after a star. There were too many pieces to fix to build around an aging Olajuwon and Drexler. Also, we knew we couldn't beat the Sonics without a legit star power forward. Lets also not forget about that dominating Bulls team with Jordan, Pippen, and Rodman. No way our team from 96 beats them. The Spurs are kind of at that point right now. Instead of picking up nobodies from the D-League, they simply went after older role players for cheap, but now they can't keep them. THey have to get younger with DUncan and Parker. If that means they have to trade an often injured 31-year old Ginobili, then it has to be done, other wise they won't win anymore titles. Similarly the Rockets had to take that chance. Maybe they could've tried to go after somebody younger, but who could they have really gotten. Chris Webber just got traded to Washington, Shawn Kemp was on the Sonics, McDyess was young, Malone wasn't going anywhere. Larry Johnson was overrated. Rodman just won a ring in Chicago. That means the only guy left to go after was Barkley, who was unhappy in Phoenix anyways. He was hungry for a ring as well. The Rockets did the best they probably could've done, considering they needed a star power forward. They should've picked up better point guards, but thats a different story... Dream didn't break up anything, he, Clyde, Rudy, CD, and Les Alexander ALL knew a change was needed.
I like your list. But you forgot about Oscar Robertson. IMO: Jordan Magic Kareem The Big O Wilt Shaq Bird Dream Duncan Jerry West 11.Kobe, 12.Malone
Shaq is the third most dominant player to ever play the game after Michael and Wilt. What Shaq did before he got really fat was amazing. During the championship run, he outplayed Duncan (Duncan is a center) and Robinson. He also faced Deke in the finals and tore him to pieces. We all thought Dekes career was over and he was too old. Considering how Deje has played in Houston as a backup, it just was Shaq being ridiculously dominant and unstoppable.
The Rockets would have gotten beat by Seattle again the following year. Then, what do you do? They were nearly within 1 game of the NBA Finals with Barkley. This with an aging Hakeem/Clyde was their best chance of getting to the finals again. Cassel/Horry would have had nice careers here.... but they were nothing without a dominant Dream. Dream was no longer dominant after 1996. He could still bring it consistently, but he wasn't MVP calibur. And then in 1998, injuries started setting in.
Wait, what championship team did Hakeem supposedly blow up? Even if he blew up any team, it would have been one that got swept in the second round of the playoffs.
You are completely right about that. Can't believe I forgot a player who once averaged a triple double! lol. My bad about that. Its great that Kobe is mentioned this high on a list...in all honesty, hate aside, he deserves it. He is a good player. He is clutch, and he is a closer. I'll give him that. I just don't think he did enough outside of scoring to be GOAT type of player. I'll put it this way...when Kobe has talent around him, he can win. He is good enough to do that. When he's by himself, he's a great scorer, but what else does he do consistently?? Look at my posts on the Kobe vs. Jordan debate. I gave PLENTY of statistics to back up what I'm saying. I think Lebron will end up higher on the list than Kobe simply because he will accomplish more individually and will probably win multiple MVP's, and if he wins a couple of titles, that may be all it takes for him, if he continues to play on a team without a real legitmate all star. Plus he started out great from Day 1 o his career at age 18. If he plays til he's 35, who knows how much he can accomplish. Kobe has had a great career and can probably play at this level for another 3 years in my opinion. Considering he relies so heavily on his jumper at age 30, I think as he gets older, his driving ability will be less and less respected and teams will learn to force him to take it to the basket. He doesn't have the post moves or the strength that Jordan had late in his career. Jumpers won't fall when your tired. Kobe is a great player, but to list him above Dream is just insulting IMO
Hmmm...I'm going to admit that I made a mistake. I've based my reasoning on the fact on potential. I was wrong. My reasoning was based Kobe winning the Finals this year, cementing him his legacy that he can win w/o Shaq. But you and I very well know that Kobe has the chance to be the top 10. Let's all be honest here. Now I know you'll refute that reasoning saying that by potential, Lebron can be top 10 too but he hasn't won squat so I'm going to take him out. Kobe on the other hand already has 3. He is eventually going to win his fourth. After careful consideration, this is my top 10. MJ Magic Wilt Chamberlain Russell Kareem Oscar Robertson Bird Shaq Dream I judged not by player vs player ability. I judged by overall play (skill, talent, accomplishment, legacy) So don't fool me to think that Shaq is a better center than Hakeem because I very well know Hakeem is a better center talent-wise than Shaq. But because of overall presence, influence, and titles, Shaq takes it. I want to be honest with you. I absolutely HATE kobe. But i give respect when i see one. So when you write about Karl Malone being better than Kobe, that's just blind goggles dude. Cmon. Now if Kobe blows this year's finals and absolutely rockbottoms his career out, then blast the HELL out of me. Feel free But if he doesnt, then position 9-10 gets a little muddier
This kind of list is dumb. Olajuwon might be better, Kobe might be better. They played in different eras, at different positions, and had different strengths. Ranking players by who is "best" is a nonsensical enterprise.
I'll agree with you about Kobe being better than Malone. But everybody else I think will stay in front of him. The reason I say Lebron will have a better chance is because he, similar to Jordan did a lot with VERY LITTLE talent around him. He was able to get to the Finals with a crap team. He took the champs last year to the final minute in game 7 without very much help. He played a historic playoffs and an even more historic conference Finals, but his teams weaknesses were exposed. Kobe, Dwade, Tmac, and Pierce cannot carry a team without a lot of talent. They can get them to the playoffs, but thats about it. I'm not saying Lebron is as good as Jordan (not until Lebron's Jumper becomes more consistent) but how much they can impact the game on both sides of the floor and by making plays, along with simply being unguardable on the offensive end is amazing to me. That is why I say Lebron has a better chance. I respect Kobe's talent. He's a great shooter, and can hit some tough shots in the clutch. However those 3 titles he got, he got them with Shaq at his absolute peak and at his most dominating stage in his career. I'm not saying Kobe didn't have anything to do with it, BUT its a lot easier when you got that kinda beast inside. Kobe was able to take possessions off, where as Hakeem, Jordan, Lebron, Kareem, Wilt, all had times when they could not take a possession off (not until they got older) Kobe still has a very talented team around him this year, including an efficient big man he can go to down low. Give Lebron that luxury and see how much he would flourish. Jordan never had a post presence that could score, but he still won 6 titles. Dream and Duncan both won titles without and all star wing player or point guard. No way Kobe will pass those guys IMO
I do think that you're comparing apples to oranges by comparing Kobe and Hakeem. They played in different eras. It's hard to know what Hakeem's stats would be like nowadays with the rules the way they are. That said, I would take Hakeem over Kobe simply for the fact that Hakeem was a more complete player. There's no question that Hakeem's one of the best defenders ever and his stats don't even reflect some things he did on defense. Hakeem changed entire offensive game plans with his ability to make you change shots / block shots. Hakeem also was a better leader in his prime than Kobe has been.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/olajuha01.html http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bryanko01.html Just one more thing I can tell you about why Dream is better than Kobe. Look at their statistics in steals. Olajuwon a 7 footer vs. Kobe Bryant, the supposed best defensive shooting guard of the decade. Olajuwon's CAREER steal average is higher than Kobe's. If you look at Olajuwon's younger days to his prime, Olajuwon is SUPERIOR in this department. Now how can Kobe be better than Olajuwon, a 7 footer, if he can't even average more steals than him at 6'6? The ONLY thing Hakeem couldn't do that Kobe can is shoot 3's, but you can say Kobe is an average rebounder for a guard and that he can't post up very well either. SLAM definetily got this one wrong...
uhhhh kobe can post up very well. dont know where you got that from. but doesnt really matter i like to see the complete list if someone can list it.
Not only that. Kobe has the complete offensive game. Any offensive move you can think of, Kobe has it. It's not only the 3s that Kobe does better than Dream. But it doesn't matter. 'Cause you can't compare a SG with a Center. That is nonsense. But I can say for sure that Kobe is very overrated on D. Hakeem was a much better defender.
